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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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americans side with cheney and embrace torture...
    #10242878 - 04/27/09 01:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

new gallup and rasmussen polls show that cheney has succeeded in selling the merits of torture to the american ppl (no doubt with a little help from jack bauer).. and prolly beyond his wildest dreams...this also makes me doubt if cheneys' approval rating is still as low as it was on january 19...

earlier polls..such as the washington post poll taken last january still showed that 58% of americans opposed torture...but the new WAPO poll (video) shows opposition to torture down to 49%.. only a single point above the 48% that now support torture...

furthermore..the upsurge in public support for torture comes about even in the face of new evidence (NYTIMES) that the torture was conducted in order to extract false confessions to justify the iraq war...

so not only has america embraced torture.. it has embraced the use of torture as a false justification for imperialist warfare...after apparently having soundly rebuked bush/cheney last november.. america has bought the whole bush package lox stock & barrel in the last 3 months...

i say "apparently rebuked" because my opinion on why it has been so easy for cheney is pure economics ..IMAO..most americans wholeheartedly accept the fascist social and economic narratives.. and the torture issue has served as a reminder...and im curious about what you think caused this sudden upswing in popularity for bu$hco...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (04/27/09 04:14 PM)

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10242932 - 04/27/09 01:50 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> most americans wholeheartedly accept the fascist social and economic narratives

I've been saying the same thing ever since Obama got elected.


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OfflineTGRR
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10242952 - 04/27/09 01:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Okay, so America is corrupt root and branch.

We can stop bitching about the government.  It's the people that are fucked up.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10243078 - 04/27/09 02:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> It's the people that are fucked up.

For being sheep that blindly follow what the Cheneys and Obamas of the world tell them?  I don't know who to blame, to be honest... the politicians that take advantage of this ignorance, or the people for embracing their ignorance without any critical thought.


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OfflineTGRR
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10243102 - 04/27/09 02:18 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> It's the people that are fucked up.

For being sheep that blindly follow what the Cheneys and Obamas of the world tell them?  I don't know who to blame, to be honest... the politicians that take advantage of this ignorance, or the people for embracing their ignorance without any critical thought.




Naw, for being torture perverts.

What the fuck does that have to do with Obama, Seuss?  Or Cheney?  If those polls are correct, then the problem - as I said - has NOTHING to do with politicians, and everything to do with a nation without principles (did you catch it that time, or are you still going to be stuck on a bullshit strawman argument?).  If they had principles, then it wouldn't matter what the hell Cheney or Obama said or did.

I honestly regret ever serving this nation in uniform.  It deserves whatever it gets.


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What can we do to help you stop screaming?

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10243261 - 04/27/09 02:50 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Why would you even run those polls?

How worthless.


Is it just me or did they not even define torture, making the results meaningless.


People are almost universally against torture.  The debate is over what torture is (unfortunatly in the common lexicon rather than the relevant definitions, but that's as good as well get it seems).


Honestly, what good do those polls do?  How many people answering that poll thought "well waterboarding is in the news and waterboarding is called torture so I'll assume that's what we're talking about even though I don't think tis torture"?  How many of the pro torturers thought we should be stabbing people with bayonets and such? 


I just don't get why such a aworthless question would be answered.  The terms are so incredibly colored and strongly associated with certain things that its almost comp[letely meaningless in my opinion.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10243278 - 04/27/09 02:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Actually, as usual, you are either being disingenuous or just can't read.  Those polls say nothing about supporting or being against torture.  They address public opinion towards investigations of abuses.

Nice, try though. Better luck next time.

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10243321 - 04/27/09 02:59 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Actually, as usual, you are either being disingenuous or just can't read.  Those polls say nothing about supporting or being against torture.  They address public opinion towards investigations of abuses.

Nice, try though. Better luck next time.




Um...

Quote:

At the same time, 55% of Americans believe in retrospect that the use of the interrogation techniques was justified, while only 36% say it was not.




Your eyes.  Use them.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10243348 - 04/27/09 03:03 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Whoops, I missed the Gallup link and just read the Rasmussen link.

Sorry Anna, statement retracted.

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OfflineSmackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


Registered: 09/27/05
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10243496 - 04/27/09 03:28 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Ya, I think the polls are pretty worthless.  Without defining torture as a specific act (water boarding, nude triangle, exc.) in specific circumstances (getting admissions to a connection between 9/11 and Iraq)I don't think that anyone would have enough framework or context to answer a that question. 

I would also agree that t.v. shows such as 24 seem to promote ignoring civil rights, but I don't know how much T.V. effects personal behavior.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Smackshadow]
    #10243628 - 04/27/09 03:48 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:
Ya, I think the polls are pretty worthless.  Without defining torture as a specific act (water boarding, nude triangle, exc.) in specific circumstances (getting admissions to a connection between 9/11 and Iraq)I don't think that anyone would have enough framework or context to answer a that question. 

I would also agree that t.v. shows such as 24 seem to promote ignoring civil rights, but I don't know how much T.V. effects personal behavior.




If people can't see that torture is wrong in principle, then they are not worth defending.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10243703 - 04/27/09 04:00 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If people can't see that torture is wrong in principle, then they are not worth defending.




In principle, torture isn't wrong. There are circumstances where it would be immoral to not torture someone.





Phred


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OfflineSmackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


Registered: 09/27/05
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10243770 - 04/27/09 04:08 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In principle, torture isn't wrong. There are circumstances where it would be immoral to not torture someone.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMO, that is only true if you define morality by a utilitarian principal, and only then if there is actually utility being gained from it.

I am not and utilitarian, and a refuse to give way to false pragmatism.

This might be a straw man argument, but I really can't think of a way torture is justified unless the benefits are greater than the harms which lead to my utilitarian argument.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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OfflineTGRR
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10243806 - 04/27/09 04:14 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

If people can't see that torture is wrong in principle, then they are not worth defending.




In principle, torture isn't wrong. There are circumstances where it would be immoral to not torture someone.





Yeah, for example, when you've had a guy detained for a year or three, he'll obviously know where a ticking time bomb is.

Nope, sorry, torture is wrong, even if "24" said otherwise.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Registered: 05/21/02
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10243863 - 04/27/09 04:22 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> It's the people that are fucked up.

For being sheep that blindly follow what the Cheneys and Obamas of the world tell them?  I don't know who to blame, to be honest... the politicians that take advantage of this ignorance, or the people for embracing their ignorance without any critical thought.




Naw, for being torture perverts.

What the fuck does that have to do with Obama, Seuss?  Or Cheney?  If those polls are correct, then the problem - as I said - has NOTHING to do with politicians, and everything to do with a nation without principles (did you catch it that time, or are you still going to be stuck on a bullshit strawman argument?).  If they had principles, then it wouldn't matter what the hell Cheney or Obama said or did.

I honestly regret ever serving this nation in uniform.  It deserves whatever it gets.




on the contrary..the politicians are not irrelevant ..bush and cheney are guilty of implementing fascist policies.. while obama could be faulted for failing to convince ppl that bu$hco is wrong...but that shouldnt even be obamas' responsibility..since bu$hco is de facto wrong to any civilized person..which most americans apparently arent...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Registered: 05/21/02
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10243874 - 04/27/09 04:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

If people can't see that torture is wrong in principle, then they are not worth defending.




In principle, torture isn't wrong. There are circumstances where it would be immoral to not torture someone.





Phred




such as when the sun rises in the west...sorry phred..but the jack bauer scenario simply does not exist in reality...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Registered: 05/21/02
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10243908 - 04/27/09 04:30 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Whoops, I missed the Gallup link and just read the Rasmussen link.

Sorry Anna, statement retracted.




apology accepted...however..another rasmussen poll shows 58% agree with cheney that releasing the torture memoes endangers national security...of course nothing could be further from the truth ..both bu$hcos' torture regime itself.. and the war justified by the false confessions it produced.. have served as recruiting tools for al-Q.. and it has given enemies an excuse to torture captured US POWs too...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10244349 - 04/27/09 05:35 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

If people can't see that torture is wrong in principle, then they are not worth defending.




In principle, torture isn't wrong. There are circumstances where it would be immoral to not torture someone.





:rolleyes:

go on... such as?

I have to admit, I'm thinking of the worst people the bush admin tortured and how little good information was received from them and I'm just thinking... WTF dude? What the fuck? It's never immoral not to torture someone, just like it is never immoral not to rape someone or not to duct-tape someone up and force them into your trunk of your car.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10244427 - 04/27/09 05:48 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> go on... such as?

Somebody that creates a supervirus that will kill all mammalian life on the planet and has secretly planted the virus to be time released in the future unless they are made emperor of the planet.  In this extreme case, I suspect that torture, to find the location of the virus, would probably be acceptable, yes?


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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10244483 - 04/27/09 06:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> go on... such as?

Somebody that creates a supervirus that will kill all mammalian life on the planet and has secretly planted the virus to be time released in the future unless they are made emperor of the planet.  In this extreme case, I suspect that torture, to find the location of the virus, would probably be acceptable, yes?




Back to the Jack Bauer argument.

If Al Jamadi was the would-be emperor, what now?  Ya beat him to death, now he CAN'T tell you where the virus is.

I mean, if we're dealing with hypotheticals.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

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