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OfflineJesusII
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The Paradox of Accepting What "Is"
    #10234887 - 04/26/09 03:54 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I've been thinking about this all night, and I really just wanted to bounce this off of someone because it has me really bothered.

  When one looks around today at all the vast human achievement and the oft-discussed exponential rise in technology/cultural memes - I can't help but not to take it at face value.

  Reasons to reject all that we "think" we know.

1.) All things that we know about the natural world and ourselves as humans are derived from repeated experimentation and the recording of the data that arises from that experimentation (all collective knowledge emerges from some form of this scenario).

2.) If history can be any ruler by which to measure ourselves by, then we come to a disturbing conclusion. Every aspect of human scientific understanding of the world is eventually proven wrong! Take for example the field of physics, in which the more we come to know about it - the more we realize that we don't know (ex.'s: Newtonian gravity being disproved, quantum relativity suggesting alternate realities, etc.)

3.) With this in mind, how can we really accept anything as being factual or true while consciously knowing that all current scientific information is just a band-aid on our flawed understanding of reality.

4.) Taking this one step further, how can a self-conscious communicative species such as ourselves not learn from this. How can we not learn that intangibility and uncertainty were our only real gifts from our "creator". How can we not learn that science, culture, society, and religion are all complete fabrications - nothing more.


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I don't want to be a nihilist, but sometimes it's difficult.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: JesusII]
    #10236502 - 04/26/09 01:18 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

:monkeydance::doggystyle::hellfire::hissyfit::ass::heart::tongue::crazy2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: JesusII]
    #10237517 - 04/26/09 04:25 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I'm just following the crowd, don't mind me! :sheepie:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: Poid]
    #10237535 - 04/26/09 04:29 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

So what you're saying is that because we cannot know the ultimate truth, we should just toss everything out the door? That's a pretty stupid idea.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: learningtofly]
    #10237639 - 04/26/09 04:51 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Was that directed at me? :confused:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineJesusII
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: learningtofly]
    #10237695 - 04/26/09 05:02 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
So what you're saying is that because we cannot know the ultimate truth, we should just toss everything out the door? That's a pretty stupid idea.




I appreciate you letting me down lightly :rolleyes:, however there really is good reason to throw all knowledge out the window.

If all understanding of the world is eventually proven wrong, not just small aspects - buy everything, then why should we accept anything as being true?

I'm merely saying that people are usually so desperate for answers that we are too quick to accept things as fact, when we should know better.


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I don't want to be a nihilist, but sometimes it's difficult.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: JesusII]
    #10237726 - 04/26/09 05:06 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I highly doubt that every single aspect of knowledge ever has been proven wrong.

No one ever said that things are true, we say that they are probably true.


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OfflineJesusII
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: learningtofly]
    #10237912 - 04/26/09 05:30 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
I highly doubt that every single aspect of knowledge ever has been proven wrong.

No one ever said that things are true, we say that they are probably true.




Look how our understanding of the world is constantly evolving, the general consensus on reality gets a complete makeover ever few centuries. I am not postulating some existential point such as we don't exist or something. I am only saying that anything you think you know about the world - you do not know.


--------------------


I don't want to be a nihilist, but sometimes it's difficult.

Edited by JesusII (04/26/09 05:30 PM)

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: JesusII]
    #10237923 - 04/26/09 05:31 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I know that President Lincoln is dead. Will that ever be disputed?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: learningtofly]
    #10237934 - 04/26/09 05:32 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

What if what you thought you knew about death was wrong? What if what you were taught about history was false?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineJesusII
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: learningtofly]
    #10237940 - 04/26/09 05:33 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
I know that President Lincoln is dead. Will that ever be disputed?




That's not a theory or a philosophy, that's just a man dying - although there is no absolute guarantee that anything is true unless you experienced it first hand.


--------------------


I don't want to be a nihilist, but sometimes it's difficult.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: Poid]
    #10237947 - 04/26/09 05:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
What if what you thought you knew about death was wrong? What if what you were taught about history was false?




WHAT IF WHAT IF WHAT IF. Don't tell me what if, tell me about what's probable. ANYTHING possible, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.


--------------------

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OfflineJesusII
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: learningtofly]
    #10237972 - 04/26/09 05:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not throwing WHATIFs at you, I'm saying that all scientific knowledge and ideas of "moral" behavior are eventually disputed and discarded. So therefore all of the beliefs and scientific philosophy of today are inherently false - so why believe them?


--------------------


I don't want to be a nihilist, but sometimes it's difficult.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: learningtofly]
    #10237978 - 04/26/09 05:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

What if it rains this winter? :rainbowcloud:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: JesusII]
    #10237998 - 04/26/09 05:40 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

1. Not all scientific knowledge and ideas of morality are disputed. especially where did you come up with this "ideas of moral behavior are eventually disputed." Moral behavior is a value judgment, not a fact and thus cannot be true or false. They change over time.

And as i said before, in regards to science, we regard things as probably true, not 100% true.


--------------------

Edited by learningtofly (04/26/09 05:41 PM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: learningtofly]
    #10238012 - 04/26/09 05:43 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
1. Not all scientific knowledge and ideas of morality are disputed. especially where did you come up with this "ideas of moral behavior are eventually disputed." Moral behavior is a value judgment, not a fact and thus cannot be true or false. They change over time.




I think that was his point...


Quote:

learningtofly said:
And as i said before, in regards to science, we regard things as probably true, not 100% true.



Most don't seem to regard scientific findings as probably true.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineJesusII
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: learningtofly]
    #10238019 - 04/26/09 05:45 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
1. Not all scientific knowledge and ideas of morality are disputed. especially where did you come up with this "ideas of moral behavior are eventually disputed." Moral behavior is a value judgment, not a fact and thus cannot be true or false. They change over time.




I would like to know what scientific understanding of the natural world exists from the dawn of civilization to today.

Moral behavior is a value judgment. However there are socially acceptable norms in terms of morality, just as there are socially acceptable norms of what scientific information to accept.

A person who believes the world is flat will no doubt face ridicule in today's society - and the current man will likely face ridicule from tomorrow's society for not knowing the universe is a pan-dimensional galaxy in itself (or something like that :cool:).


--------------------


I don't want to be a nihilist, but sometimes it's difficult.

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Invisibledeimya
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: JesusII]
    #10238064 - 04/26/09 05:58 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

We can aim a rocket and successfully hit a one meter wide plate somewhere on the moon using only Newtonian gravity. Doesn't that make it right up to a certain accuracy ? "Science" does not form an understanding of reality, it's people who think or feel they do, sometimes and for some circumstances with the help of the scientific method.

Everything is so fashionable that we mistake the map for the territory, and then act all betrayed when it doesn't live up to the hype.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: deimya]
    #10238087 - 04/26/09 06:05 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deimya said:
We can aim a rocket and successfully hit a one meter wide plate somewhere on the moon using only Newtonian gravity. Doesn't that make it right up to a certain accuracy ?



Source?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineJesusII
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: deimya]
    #10238171 - 04/26/09 06:18 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, but the same laws of Newtonian gravity completely crumble when those same physicists try to extract sub-atomic particles from atoms in highly charged states.

Science is a great means to an end, but you can't for a second accept it as fact.


--------------------


I don't want to be a nihilist, but sometimes it's difficult.

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Invisibledeimya
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: Poid]
    #10238180 - 04/26/09 06:19 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Gravitation by Charles W. Misner, Kip S. Thorne and John Archibald Wheeler

or any other book on general relativity for that matter.

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Invisibledeimya
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: JesusII]
    #10238202 - 04/26/09 06:22 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You completely fail to understand that there are bounds within which you have a strong degree of confidence on predictions made by this or that theory. Does that make them altogether wrong ?

You're setting a straw man on what science is about to further your attempt at tempered solipsism. Be my guest.

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OfflineJesusII
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: deimya]
    #10238210 - 04/26/09 06:23 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deimya said:
Gravitation by Charles W. Misner, Kip S. Thorne and John Archibald Wheeler

or any other book on general relativity for that matter.




I don't think that proves the existence of high accuracy inter-planetary missiles.


--------------------


I don't want to be a nihilist, but sometimes it's difficult.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: deimya]
    #10238215 - 04/26/09 06:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deimya said:
Gravitation by Charles W. Misner, Kip S. Thorne and John Archibald Wheeler

or any other book on general relativity for that matter.



I mean, do you have a link that we can all read that supports what you said earlier?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineJesusII
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: deimya]
    #10238226 - 04/26/09 06:27 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deimya said:
You completely fail to understand that there are bounds within which you have a strong degree of confidence on predictions made by this or that theory. Does that make them altogether wrong ?

You're setting a straw man on what science is about to further your attempt at tempered solipsism. Be my guest.




That is not at all what I'm doing.

All major understanding of the world is eventually proven wrong. Examples, motion of the cosmos, rotation of the planets, shape of the earth, size of the universe, atomic structure, genetics - specifically the belief in sects of eugenics, medical treatment, psychological treatment, and neurology to name few - and the list goes on.

So I am just stating science like it is, a means to an end - but it always ends up being wrong.


--------------------


I don't want to be a nihilist, but sometimes it's difficult.

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Invisibledeimya
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: Poid]
    #10238260 - 04/26/09 06:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

No, but I'm sure one could end up on a website by some dude starting from google and "Newtonian physics accuracy and precision", if that's what you take as source.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: deimya]
    #10238277 - 04/26/09 06:36 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I dunno, what you said earlier isn't something that is common knowledge, so that's why I asked you to provide a source for it.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Invisibledeimya
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: JesusII]
    #10238367 - 04/26/09 06:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The thing is that you seem to ask of our understanding, and scientific understand in particular, that it produces "facts". It doesn't. The world is that which is the case and that's more than enough. Does it bothers you that the picture we have of electron-nucleus system as laying in certain definite energy states might change in the future ? Does it make you uncomfortable to know that nothing is knowable exactly ?

Maybe it's just that I think "understanding", "knowledge" and "facts" are overrated signs, in a world obsessed with technology and science, which we unfortunately came to recognized, by a weird turn of event, as factually true things that exist in themselves and not as forms of human activity. The map for the territory again I guess.

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OfflineNymphaea
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Re: The Paradox of Accepting What "Is" [Re: JesusII]
    #10239216 - 04/26/09 09:11 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Scientific theory claims to very accurately measure and predict events in certain situations, but not all situations.  When a new theory comes a long with a completely new picture of how things "work" and is able to measure more accurately and in more situations it does not mean that the old scientific theory is proven wrong.  The old theory did what it "said" it would do.

Humble Physicists will never think that they are painting a perfect picture of reality.  All they are doing is improving on and changing models/tools for measuring and predicting things, leave the picture painting for the philosophers.

I do find it interesting from a sociological perspective to look at "morality" evolve through history and realize that it is still evolving.  Ideas once widely accepted are now held as false.  The same will be true of the present day and age.  Some day high school kids will read about us in history class: how we got locked up for smoking weed, and how you where not allowed to grow hemp in America.  They will laugh at the idiocy of our generation, but they themselves will get laughed at someday. 

Maybe this is the next step in the evolution of our understanding of what is "right" and what is "wrong" or what is "true" and what is "false."  If we consciously realize that future generations will not believe the same things we do, and with good reason, then perhaps, empowered by the this knowledge, we began to evolve our ideas even faster.

There is no definite "truth" that can be understood by humans, and there never will be until some unforeseen expansion of our consciousness takes place.  Every answer raises two questions.


--------------------
:huxleyfacepalm:


Plant Trees

Edited by Nymphaea (04/26/09 09:14 PM)

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