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OfflineRonoS
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The Kyoto Accord....a retraction
    #1022693 - 11/05/02 12:24 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

As some of you know, I make no secret about my loathing for American politics and their connection with Oil companies...having said that let me discuss the proposed Kyoto accord.

I previously stated that I seen nothing wrong with the Kyoto accord and that I indeed agreed that it is a good idea...unfortunately my opinions on the matter were premature and were probably just a knee jerk reaction from tending to be a polar opposite to everything that Pinksharkmark believes.

Upon further research, the Kyoto accord is simply unrealistic for Canada..I still believe that it is a good idea in principle but the way it is being forced down Canadas throat is wrong.

If every person in Canada stopped driving, and every factory shut down..and Canada basically reverted to the stone age...guess how much of a difference that would make on the world?...Let me tell you......are you ready?

2% ...that's right 2%!!! If The 2nd largest Country in the world stopped EVERYTHING the difference would be barely measurable. Keep in mind that I only speak for Canada, and I do not know how it affects other countries...but the damage that Kyoto would do to Canada is immense in relation to the miniscule good it creates...comments?


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (11/05/02 03:58 PM)


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: Rono]
    #1022994 - 11/05/02 03:31 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quite likely the Kyoto accord will result in a net gain jobs for the economy bcause of R&D investment.

Also, it helps us (Canada) to walk with Europe, and not with USA, which has traditionally been Canada's way.

Yeah, the global impact will be minimal, but the kudos will be significant. Besides, SOMETHING must be done...don't it?


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: Rono]
    #1023271 - 11/05/02 05:44 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Where are you getting your info from Rono?


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Always Smi2le


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1023291 - 11/05/02 05:53 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Rono, I was impressed when these thoughts of yours first appeared in another forum. I am doubly impressed to see you restate them here.

carbon, doing something for the kudos is not the right reason. Doing something flawed because "something must be done" is just as bad. Something should be done, what however is still open for discussion.

To do something merely because you can "walk" with Europe, or because it's the opposite of what the US is doing is childish at best. Kind of like the "if you don't play my way I'm taking my ball and going home".

Should we search for effective ways to make a change? Of course. Shall we revert back to the stone age to reduce pollution and make a bunch of wackos happy? Fuck no. The right answer will be found. Kyoto was not it.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: Rono]
    #1023400 - 11/05/02 07:30 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

****unfortunately my opinions on the matter were premature and were probably just a knee jerk reaction from tending to be a polar opposite to everything that Pinkmarkshark believes. *****

I was about to scream puppet but it's really you.  It's got to kill you having the same belief as I have... :grin:....keep it up and we'll give you a membership card.

****Upon further research, the Kyoto accord is simply unrealistic..I still believe that it is a good idea in principle but the way it is being forced down Canadas throat is wrong. *****

I'm happy you agree with this side but i have to ask you something in my most non-sarcastic way.  How come you weren't concerned when it was forced down OUR throats?

welcome home Rono.... :grin:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: Rono]
    #1023440 - 11/05/02 08:12 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Hats off to the man who can publicly state his former opinions were inaccurate.

Bravo!

Will you be my friend?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: Rono]
    #1023546 - 11/05/02 09:34 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Kudos to Rono for taking the time to investigate the matter further and for reporting his changed stance. Clearly his interest was in educating himself on the issue in order arrive at an informed and independent opinion rather than merely going along with the herd.

Rono, you had asked for comments. Here's one:

You said -- Keep in mind that I only speak for Canada, and I do not know how it affects other countries...

The effect on INDUSTRIALIZED countries is pretty much the same from Canada to Australia to Japan to England. Those countries in the colder latitudes would be hit worse, but from what I have read so far, there is not a single industrialized country in the world which will meet the standards by the dates called for in the Kyoto accord. Every industrialized country, no matter how well-meaning, will be in violation of the accord.


pinky



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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: GazzBut]
    #1023570 - 11/05/02 09:53 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Gazzbut asks:

Where are you getting your info from Rono?

Rono is a Canadian, (I was born and raised in Canada and still visit it twice a year) and there has been quite a lot of detailed analysis in the Canadian press over the Kyoto accords. Canadians see themselves as great defenders of the ecology, and take things like the Kyoto accord very seriously. This is why there seems to be a sense of shame to many of the articles and editorials -- Canadians honestly WANT to be able to comply, and it is upsetting to come to the realization that they cannot.

About a year and a half ago (I might be off by six months or so in either direction) there was an excellent series of articles in the Ottawa Citizen newspaper, and probably all the other Southam papers, about this problem. There was also at least one article in MacLean's magazine, and on the CTV newsmagazine program (can't remember the name -- sort of a Canadian version of Sixty Minutes).

I found the articles in the Citizen to be the most detailed, with lots and LOTS of statistics, data, and scientific commentary from just about everywhere and everyone. A VERY complete and even-handed analysis of the situation. The conclusions reached were that not only was it impossible for Canada to meet the requirements, but that there was no way for ANY industrialized country to do so either without immediate and massive -- and I mean MASSIVE -- investment in the crash construction of hundreds of nuclear plants. Other countries had obviously come to the same conclusions (Australia, Japan, the US... England? -- not sure about England) and refused to sign the accord in the first place. There is a growing call for Canada to withdraw now rather than stick it out and be found in violation down the road.

pinky



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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: Phred]
    #1023583 - 11/05/02 10:02 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for that. The thing that bothers me is, if these targets are set so unrealistically there is the chance that nothing will get done. Surely, it is for the best to do as much as possible as quickly as possible, regardless of whether it meets Kyoto requirements? I know Rono mentions that the possible improvements are small, even when meeting the Kyoto requirements but I believe small changes iterate into big effects over time. A belieft borne out by fractal theory, ya know  butterflies and raintstorms.  :grin: 


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: Phred]
    #1023586 - 11/05/02 10:02 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

i'm doing a little research can you tell me what the biggest most popular newspaper in the UK?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: Rono]
    #1023621 - 11/05/02 10:21 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Kyotto accord isn't about getting us back to stone age. As I see it it's just a way to make dirty technologies more expensive and less profitable. The capital will flow to R&D for new tech and there should be no negative impact on economy.

For example gasoline is much cheaper in USA & Canada then in Europe, mainly because of taxes. As a result everybody over there drives big cars that consume & pollute a lot but without any obvious benefits (except stupid status symbols).


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1023643 - 11/05/02 10:41 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The Sun


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Always Smi2le


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: GazzBut]
    #1023649 - 11/05/02 10:45 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The thing that bothers me is, if these targets are set so unrealistically there is the chance that nothing will get done.

You hit the nail right on the head. This is why there was such widespread opposition to the Kyoto accords in many areas. Any goal in any area of human endeavor must be both realistic and attainable. The Kyoto goals for INDUSTRIALIZED nations are neither (short of a very heavy reliance on nuclear power). There is a very real danger that those nations will just give up entirely, rationalizing that since there is no possible way to attain the goal, or (for some countries) even come close, there is no point in trying at all. Might as well be chastised for missing the target by 50% as missing it by 35%, right?

pinky



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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1023657 - 11/05/02 10:51 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quite likely the Kyoto accord will result in a net gain jobs for the economy bcause of R&D investment.

Unfortunately, such is not the case. R&D positions are few and far between... not so much because they are not needed, but because they require a MUCH higher level of education than do jobs such as gas pump jockey, grease monkey, oil rig roustabout, pipefitter, assembly-line worker, etc.

pinky



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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1023661 - 11/05/02 10:53 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Quite likely the Kyoto accord will result in a net gain jobs for the economy bcause of R&D investment



How do you come to this conclusion? What are the facts and to how many decimal places?

How many jobs will be lost and in what industries?

How much will compliance cost and how will it be passed on to consumers?

How much will the R&D cost and how will it be passed on to the consumers?

How will the people who have lost their jobs be able to afford the increased prices on products and services resulting from compliance and R&D?

What will the increased tax burden be on those who have kept their jobs to pay for relief of those who have lost their jobs?

What will the increased tax burden be on those who have kept their jobs to pay for retraining of those who have lost their jobs? Compliance will require more technical expertise, will those who have lost their jobs have the ability to adapt to the more complex and more technical jobs that may have replaced theirs?

When tax increases are put in place (see above) how will consumer spending habits change to accomodate less disposable income? What affect will decreased consumer spending have on the overall economies? How many more jobs will be lost due to this secondary economic drain?

I could go on, but hopefully, you get the picture. The unintended consequences are many and understated by those pushing for Kyoto. There are costs to be paid and those who will suffer the most are those with lower incomes and lower education or lower natural abilities to adapt. These things should be given their FULL consideration. Wishful thinking does not make for good public policy.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: GazzBut]
    #1023675 - 11/05/02 11:03 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

so that's where you set the news from...oh...... :grin:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1023696 - 11/05/02 11:24 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I dont read newspapers.


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Always Smi2le


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: Rono]
    #1024412 - 11/05/02 03:18 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Check out this link and it should provide some of you with an idea about Greenhouse gas emissions and how each country rates...note that the U.S. is responsible for 24% of the worlds greenhouse gas, and like I said previously Canada is responsible for 2%....I am against the Kyoto Accord for Canada, but it's obvious that the U.S. needs to make a drastic change considering it is responsible for 1/4 of the earths greenhouse gas issue...yet has a relatively small percentage of the worlds population.
(Sorry to get some of your hopes up, thinking I was changing sides)
KYOTO


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (11/05/02 04:00 PM)


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: Rono]
    #1025090 - 11/05/02 07:05 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Hmmmm...what happened to all my "Kudos" after posting that link?  :confused:


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Kyoto Accord....a retraction [Re: Rono]
    #1025222 - 11/05/02 07:45 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Canada is on a per capita basis just as big an emitter of "greenhouse gases" as the US, according to your link. Canada is responsible for 9% of North America's GHG emission, the US is responsible for 86%. Canada has roughly 31 million people, the US has roughly 282 million. Do the math.

Why is it OK for Canada to dodge out but not the US? Canadians, head by head, emit just as much GHG as do Americans, head by head. Are we not all trapped on the same planet? Do we not all (except for Russia, Africa and South America, of course) have the responsibility to regress to the Bronze Age equally?

Whatever arguments you make for Canada being unable to reach the targets MUST logically also apply to the United States. There is virtually no difference between the lifestyles of individuals in the two countries from the point of view of GHG emissions... the only difference is there are more American emitters than Canadian emitters.

pinky


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