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Invisiblesterbeklang
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Destruction and Violence as a Teaching/Motivational Tool
    #10220122 - 04/23/09 01:17 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Some of the people I've been reading or listening to lately have the opinion that peaceable means are not enough to enact real change.  Instead of making signs, holding sit-ins and signing petitions, they believe in destruction of property.  They are apt to say things like, "I don't condone violence, but I don't condone non-violence either."

Yes, property destruction and violence are more apt to get people's attention than peaceable means.  At least it makes the news.  But does the attention generated actually teach or motivate or change the opinions of the target audience?  Or is it actually to their detriment, in that people would be even less likely to listen to them because they're behaving like a bunch of psychos?

If faced with immediate violence or destruction of property, we would probably do anything to stop it.  But most who didn't already agree with the agenda would certainly harbor resentment against the perpetrators.  It wouldn't make us turn around to their way of thinking, necessarily, so any change would be purely temporary and based on fear.

Assuming their stance is partially correct and peaceful means are of little use, are non-peaceful means really any more powerful?  I suppose perhaps they are.  If you don't pay your rent and get evicted, but still don't leave your home, the Sheriff will come to your door and remove you at gunpoint.  So you are in effect paying your rent in order to avoid the threat of violence.  Even if you question the concept of property ownership as an abstract concept, you do not tend to question the necessity of paying the rent on time.


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Destruction and Violence as a Teaching/Motivational Tool [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10224119 - 04/24/09 01:43 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Violence does in fact motivate many politicians. To the desired result? is another matter.

Where I live the sheriff would definitely not come to the door and evict me at gunpoint. However, you do have a point, that the government has a monopoly on violence (Gewaltmonopol des Staates) and that much of what we do is because our actions will result in or could lead to physical or psychological violence.

I prefer seeing inner change made due to insight and understanding. It satisfies me more than seeing change by fear, coercion or force.

Edit: Weber said the state has a monopoly on violence. He even equated its basic function to that. Not to say that people didn't figure that out already when the first states were created many thousand years ago.


Edited by Lakefingers (04/24/09 01:45 AM)


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InvisibleMastamike1118
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Re: Destruction and Violence as a Teaching/Motivational Tool [Re: Lakefingers]
    #10224315 - 04/24/09 03:26 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

if u make something bad enough for someone they will change... that is a gaurantee...


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Destruction and Violence as a Teaching/Motivational Tool [Re: Lakefingers]
    #10224392 - 04/24/09 03:58 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I think people just lack the right ideas.

We live in a world where we are given choices left right and centre.

The best protest is to use your choices to make a point.

Unfortunately people feel like their contribution is not recognised.. that they are only a single person when they do this.

This is just immaturity.

It is immature to cling to that superficial power of being in a group and thus feeling purposeful.

Protests do very little but make conservative people feel elite, and feel like the hippies that protest are just jealous or unlucky that they arent benefitting from the practices being protested against.

It just polarises people.

Thus protesting is no longer a viable means for enacting change.

Rather, consumer choice is.

With the right leadership, there might be other methods of getting a point across... but until then people should use their actual power - their money, to make the world the way they want.

I think that people need to stop trying to get their point across and instead should just try and influence the world into being right, and the best way to do this is to understand what your opponent's beliefs and reasons are for their actions.

Just because someone pays for battery hens, for example, does not mean they are evil because it is considered acceptable to do so in society. This is because with current paradigms, battery hens are just normal hens and free range eggs are more of a 'premium' choice, as if stepping out of the ordinary.

If, however, battery hen eggs came with a 'torture' sticker (which no one can deny they deserve) then people would probably not buy them.

With the right values in people who enact change (leaders), awareness of society can shift to using paradigms or terms that highlight the effect that their choices have.

By chosing to spend on cheap products, you are chosing to make it harder for legitimate businesses to function and are supporting large corporate business that benefits a few powerful people who dont give a shit about your interests, and at the same time supports the payment of people in poverty, merely making it more 'normal' or 'accepted' for people to be payed that rate in the first place.

Protesting meant a lot back in the 60's and 70's because protests were big deals.

now we have seen it all before and its just 'another immature foot stamp' in the eyes of the major population. In the 60's and 70's, footage of large groups of people banding together were typically related to war, and held a lot of significance.

Noweadays, footage of protest just brings up images of third world countries, of 'loser' societies.

Let us, empowered people, use our money wisely. Let us protest by denying ourselves simple spolit pleasures of western consumerist life. By working harder and boycotting those things that we trully feel are wrong.
But in order for this to happen, we need awareness. We need to know what our choices really mean. Consumers should be privy to all information about how the environment is exploited in order to make our choices possible


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Destruction and Violence as a Teaching/Motivational Tool [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10225105 - 04/24/09 09:04 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

violence is important, especially since the world mostly won't use birth control:satansmoking:

Ever consider the worlds population without our history of war. The alternative would be starvation and disease.

So get out there and bust some heads.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Destruction and Violence as a Teaching/Motivational Tool [Re: Icelander]
    #10225117 - 04/24/09 09:08 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


Ever consider the worlds population without our history of war. The alternative would be starvation and disease.





I don't follow your logic here? Not that there isn't starvation and disease.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Destruction and Violence as a Teaching/Motivational Tool [Re: Grapefruit]
    #10225652 - 04/24/09 11:32 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

War is a natural population control. The numbers of the slain are uncountable. Just think if all those rabbits had been breeding instead.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Destruction and Violence as a Teaching/Motivational Tool [Re: Icelander]
    #10226011 - 04/24/09 12:51 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Violences uses coercion and assumes correctness rather than tests it.

Besides, lets take the example of MLK vs. Malcom X. Two people who had the same goal but one wanted to turn the other cheek and one said through any means necessary. Who's way worked? MLKs.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Destruction and Violence as a Teaching/Motivational Tool [Re: learningtofly]
    #10226031 - 04/24/09 12:55 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

It did? It worked? Really?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Destruction and Violence as a Teaching/Motivational Tool [Re: Icelander]
    #10226039 - 04/24/09 12:55 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It did? It worked? Really?




Fine, it worked better than force. The OP seemed to be about if violence worked better than non-violence, not if one was the ultimate problem solver.


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Edited by learningtofly (04/24/09 12:56 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Destruction and Violence as a Teaching/Motivational Tool [Re: learningtofly]
    #10226052 - 04/24/09 12:59 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Well it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Violence works well if you want to eat a hamburger.

As far as cultural change goes one can make a case that war has effected much change.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (04/24/09 01:01 PM)


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InvisibleSentient#6
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Registered: 12/04/08
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Re: Destruction and Violence as a Teaching/Motivational Tool [Re: Icelander]
    #10226379 - 04/24/09 02:04 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I think destruction and violence should be used as personal amusement tool. I think that's what it's primarily always been used as.


The whole greater good, noble cause, radical changes...those are just coincidental side effects. :wink:


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Last night I was honored with the Nobel Prize in theoretical physics. This worldwide recognition has given me the opportunity to bring hope to a war-ravaged world. I vowed to myself I would work like a dog at this. But now, it's 10:30 in the morning and I'm just getting out of bed. I did get up earlier around 8:00am, but I just lied in bed for a while, and then...jerked off. I've got to stop masturbating, it makes me too lazy. Stop it Albert...stop it.

  ~Albert Einstein.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Destruction and Violence as a Teaching/Motivational Tool [Re: Sentient#6]
    #10226633 - 04/24/09 02:46 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"Fear is never boring" -The Bears.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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