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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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Arrowhead Mills - whole grain rye
    #1020364 -

I've been working (or trying to) with this product lately and my results are less than perfect. I'm looking for others who use this same product, and what sterilization tek is working well for them.
I put equal parts of water/rye or straw juice/rye and pc for 90 minutes. The jars do well at first, but as time goes on, they get some kind of bacterial looking goo stuff at the bottom of the jars. As a sidenote, I don't shake my jars. I've had very little luck with that, and I'm sure it's because I don't add the gypsum. However, I've seen others here who do the same and they have nice results. I have cased some of the jars, which fruited, but not beautifully. More aborts than any of us want, some fruits looking kinda' unhealthy, and failure sooner than expected. I've cased straight grain, spawned to straw, spawned to scotts, and spawned to a combination straw/scottts -- all with similar results.
I think my method of soaking/cooking may be the culprit. Does this particular product work better when a pre-simmer method is used, maybe with a rinse? I've attempted soaks before, but I keep sprouting before I get to the next step. If I drain them before they sprout, how can I determine that they are saturated enough? I think my water ratio is about right for the product. Previous attempts at less or more were even uglier than what I have now....too dry or too wet, obviously. Any guidance appreciated, as I'd like to start some new jars this week.


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I don't really know anyone who grows mushrooms. I just come here for fun.

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Re: Arrowhead Mills - whole grain rye [Re: babyshroom]
    #1020430 -

I don't use arrowhead mills, but I do use grain ALWAYS WITH GOOD RESULTS...

I seen reference to this "soaking the grain before PCing" and I don't know where that comes from. I've always used the Oss and Oneric method, (SLIGHTLY more water than grain tossed in a jar with a pinch of oyster shell)

Not shaking your jars is a mistake in my opinion, it's one of the main advantages of using grain. (speeds colonization) What sort of timeline are you experiencing for colonization? 2-3 weeks at least would be my guess, this is long time, and leaves time for bacteria to get established...


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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Re: Arrowhead Mills - whole grain rye [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1020672 -

Yes, carbon, it's taking forever to colonize completely. I had tried shaking previously, and jars that looked great at 3-4 days stalled like a mofo as soon as I shook them. Jars shaken immediately after innoculation failed more often than not.
I think some of my problem was wet:dry ratio. I'm doing equal amounts now, and using a full 10 cc syringe for innoculation. Maybe I should try shaking again, now that I feel my ratio is right (or close, at least).
Can I use the pet store type of crushed oyster shell (bird product) in my jars? I use that in my casing, but didn't even think about using it (rather than gypsum, which I don't have) in my grain. Is it one and the same? I know I can break up drywall for some gypsum, but I don't want the mess - rather have something I can buy in a box.
The 75 lb bails of wheat straw I recently started working with have sucked all of the "do it yourself" right out of me! Cutting up a bag of straw by hand sucks a big fat one - it can take all DAY!!! The thought of scraping white powder out of drywall makes me cringe - I know it will be a messy, gross job too.
I also wonder if this particular brand rye has some type of coating that is harmful to my experiments. Since I'm not doing any rinsing at all, could this contribute to my problems?
I will definitely try shaking on 1/2 the jars from my next couple batches, sticking with current ratios, and see if there is an improvement.
If anyone knows whether I can use the bird product type of oyster shell, I'd love to know. I have to hit the pet store at lunch in about 30 minutes for some other stuff, anyone able to give a quick reply?
Carbon - thanks for your help. There will be hella shaking in my house this week.


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I don't really know anyone who grows mushrooms. I just come here for fun.

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Re: Arrowhead Mills - whole grain rye [Re: babyshroom]
    #1021305 -

Yeah, you can use the bird stuff, I have...farmer supply shops are cheaper.



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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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Re: Arrowhead Mills - whole grain rye [Re: babyshroom]
    #1021759 -

simmer the grain on the stove for 30-45 mins. strain the grain. rinse the grain good. strain again. load jars 3/4 full and pc for 1hr-1/2hr. no "goo" in my jars since ive followed this method. do the jars have proper air exchange? and for shaking.
if you have sterile jars from the beginning, shaking the jars shouldnt catch the contam. its probably from the syringe or unsterile conditions before hand. it makes growth explode. your right it does stall for a day or two but its worth it.

go with simmering. then u wont have to play with the water content. also gets rid of that coating your talking about. Peace


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dont make me pop a cap!

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[Re: criminulmindid]
    #1021772 -


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Re: Arrowhead Mills - whole grain rye [Re: matts]
    #1021822 -

well. the pc should ultimately kill all contams. but every step towards cleanliness i support  :cool: i dont really know about using it in inocs cause u wont get to 140* to kill off the peroxide. unless u pc after you inoc. either way if it works for you than thats what counts. peace 


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dont make me pop a cap!

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[Re: criminulmindid]
    #1021875 -


Edited by matts (11/04/02 05:39 PM)

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Re: Arrowhead Mills - whole grain rye [Re: babyshroom]
    #1022017 -

You should shake the jars before they cool. That evens out the water content before innoculation. Also, i hope your not saying 10cc per jar. More innoculant increases the chance of contamination in my openion. If a few bacteria get in the syringe, cause it's not perfectly steril, then there's a higher chance of getting one in the jar. And finally, you are using a filter disk or pollyfill right? cause otherwise they definatly will stall.

PS. Arrowhead mills rye, and pennington's birdseed are the only things i have used in quarts jars. And i suggest polyfill with plastic lids.


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Edited by Shaw (11/04/02 06:41 PM)

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Re: Arrowhead Mills - whole grain rye [Re: Shaw]
    #1024424 -

Yay - some excellent tips and advice here!
carbon - thanks for lmk about the bird stuff. Got 4 boxes today - one step closer to solving my problems.
criminul - air exchange may be part of my problem. To be honest, I still use the old loose lid, foil over it method I used with my first flour jars. I got some filter discs once, but everything dried out before it colonized. I never tried anything but loose lids after that. Until recently, I only worked with Pennington's, and I was doing fine. Then I got a batch of Pennington's that consistently failed, and decided to "learn" rye. Since the seed colonized well with just loose lids, I just assumed rye would also. Duh - stupid mistake. I've seen enough posts about filters to realize they make a difference.
Point taken - I will have to decide how I'm going to give more air exchange. Time for another visit to the faq for some tips in that area. Thanks for bringing the air exchange up. I'm sure that's part of it.
matt - Very intriqued with the h202 method. What wet:dry ratio do you use for the overnight soak, and how long do you sleep? I attempted an overnight soak once, and had many burst grains, so I tossed it. Do you judge the "nice and plump" by experienced eye, wait until the first kernel pops, or go with a strictly timed 20 minutes? I guess I sound stupid, but I've had so many failures and near misses with my jars lately, I'm getting frustrated. Failure sucks.
shaw - I do shake as soon as the pc cools down and there is no more pressure in the cooker. Then I return jars to the pc until completely cooled. And yes, I'm afraid I am using a full 10 cc's per jar. The first time I tried it, my jars moved faster and looked healthier, so I thought I had solved my problem. Then, towards the end, here comes the gooey, yellow looking crap and, ultimately (a good portion of the time) the complete stall. What amount of innoculant has worked well for you, and does the appropriate amount vary, depending on how you soak/simmer/pc the grains? And the plastic lids - a mycology product, I think. Not available in regular old stores in my area, I bet. Can I drill a hole and shove polyfil in the metal ones while I wait for an order?
I appreciate all the advice and tips. Looking forward to some healthy jars with everyone's help.
On the bright side - I just found a source for free dried horse poop! I've been dying to get my hands on some good poop, and just when I get some, I can't manage to produce a decent jar of spawn.
I think I will try both of the methods listed above this weekend, if matts will be kind enough to lmk how much h202 to put with how much rye.
Happy Growing!!!


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I don't really know anyone who grows mushrooms. I just come here for fun.

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Re: Arrowhead Mills - whole grain rye [Re: babyshroom]
    #1024563 -

when your using filters it's good to have them in something that holds the humidity. A rubbermaid or something. It you were absolutly cirtain that the spore solution was 100% steril the ammount dosn't matter. Even when the spores are bought, there's still a chance for contamination. I use plastic storage lids with a polyfill hole melted in one side, and an innoc hole melted on the other side.


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Re: Arrowhead Mills - whole grain rye [Re: Shaw]
    #1025395 -

Oh geez..that's exactly what I left out. I had them in cupboards, and even tried to hurry a few up by putting them on top of the hot weater heater. Better give the filters another chance.
And, I do make my own syringes, so that could be the problem. No glovebox, I use the oven tek. Sometimes I even skip the oven, but work quickly in a small sterile area with no air flow while I'm working. But, I've been making them for a while, and I was doing well with seed knocked up by my own syringes.
I just spent a while checking out my boxes, and nearly every flush is getting a lot of sick-looking fruit. Some are beautiful, but there are lots of aborts. I usually get aborts towards the end of a flush, not at the beginning. I'm using tweezers like crazy, pulling little black-headed monsters from between the pretty ones.
I did think of one more thing - could this be a source of trouble? My quart jars are not wide mouth. I use a sterile blade to cut into the colonized jar, break apart, and then dump into a ziplock. Seed is smaller, and this method didn't produce sliced seeds. With rye, I do actually slice into kernels when I'm breaking up my jars. Could cutting the kernels cause the early flush aborts - or any other known problems?


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I don't really know anyone who grows mushrooms. I just come here for fun.

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Re: Arrowhead Mills - whole grain rye [Re: babyshroom]
    #1028058 -

cutting kernals causing abborts? Your eating too many I think.
It will increase the chance of contamination though. If your using quarts, you should usually be able to shake it up once fully colonized, and dump out, or let recover for a day and still pour out.


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Re: Arrowhead Mills - whole grain rye [Re: Shaw]
    #1032060 -

Hmmm.....this makes me think my jars are too wet. I tried the 30-45 minute simmer thing last night. I can't try the h202 method until tomorrow night, so I can do Part 2 the following morning - no time on work days. I simmered until I saw the very first signs of sprouting - just a tip of white peeking from inside a kernel or 2. I drained, rinsed very well, and drained again. Did up my jars, and shook as soon as cooled. They see evenly moist, but much drier than I'm used to seeing. I didn't have time to knock 'em up this a.m., so they're still in the pc. I have plenty of juice, so I'll probably go ahead and try them......
Should I be measuring the leftover liquid (after simmering) to determine whether I have enough liquid? I added a couple cups of water to my regular 750ml:750ml water:rye ratio. When I drained the liquid, there was more than 2 cups that were not absorbed by the grain. Not much more, but more. My measurements weren't exact, but they will be next time. Any tips that might help in this area?
btw, the water I drained off was noticeably discolored, so I guess I did get rid of some type of coating. ALSO, I found several little teeny black bugs. They were so small, it was very difficult to be certain they were bugs, but after asking 4 other people, we all agreed. My name brand, overpriced, brand new and JUST opened rye had BUGS! Could this have been contributing to my problems? Is this common with packaged grains?
Thinking of writing the company (maybe I can get a few free coupons for my trouble), unless this a common occurrence with packaged grains.
I never saw bugs before, so I don't know if the problem is with only this bag or if they ALL have it. I have 3 more new bags to open and check out, but won't have time until the weekend. When I put the grain on to simmer, the little bugs floated to the top right away, so they were easy to spot this time. They were so dinky, I'd have never seen them if they weren't floating on top.



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I don't really know anyone who grows mushrooms. I just come here for fun.

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