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InvisibleShroominit
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[Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing
    #10198500 - 04/19/09 10:20 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Now, before I start, I understand that mushroom reproduction is complicated. Please do not give me a lesson on it unless you are ready to explain in very specific detail.

I was wondering (and have read quite a bit) if you consistently follow these steps:
-Grow from multispore
-clone a fruit with a desired trait (say a different color than usual)
-isolate the clone on agar and grow out all isolates to make sure at least one has the desired trait.
-print this fruit and repeat the process

Will the fruits eventually start producing spores with the genetic properties you are selecting for?
I mean the spore genetics are 'random' but they can only be random to a point. Especially with an isolate the 'randomness' of the genetics should be quite limited, am I correct?

*Note* I posted this in MC because I figured it was not advanced enough to be in Advanced Mycology. If it is better suited there, I wouldn't mind it being moved.

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Offlinefltdriver82
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: Shroominit]
    #10198944 - 04/20/09 12:07 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

:popcorn:

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Invisibledrainhaven
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: fltdriver82]
    #10199004 - 04/20/09 12:20 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I have 50 posts, you have 2000 I should be asking you this haha.

From my understanding if you do a print, its thousands of spore. You would kinda be starting over. Maybe stronger than multi-spore, but still. Stab the best fruit and put on petri. Cultivate that.

But Im probably worng...

Ona side note...the bong hit noise was funny.


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InvisibleShroominit
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: drainhaven]
    #10199048 - 04/20/09 12:31 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Well that  was kinda the question I was asking, if I go multispore from an isolate, what is the genetic variation from the original genes? As I continue repeating the process do the spores contain closer and closer genetic material (like incest/ animal breeding?) I mean I assume it takes many more generations to achieve the same effect, but is it feasible?

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Invisibledrainhaven
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: Shroominit]
    #10199086 - 04/20/09 12:40 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You either go multi-spore or you go isolate. Maybe its late and its not making sense to me. If you go MULTI spore it isnt ISOLATED. If you isolated a fruit, isolated another fruit, and then used a print from that, it isn't isolated anymore.

But you know how nature works if you start inbreeding you're mushrooms past a certain generation they will start telling the news crew how the tornado sounded.  :hi:


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InvisibleShroominit
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: drainhaven]
    #10199100 - 04/20/09 12:43 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Heh thanks for your input, but yeah I don't think you're getting the idea I'm after.

I want to 'inbreed' the spores of isolated mushrooms over and over. I want to keep doing this until I get the trait that I am isolating for in every fruit body from multispore.

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Offlinefltdriver82
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: Shroominit]
    #10199279 - 04/20/09 01:25 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I believe what he is saying is that even after multiple gen's you wouldn't have altered the mushroom's genetics enough to produce "better" mushrooms from it's spores. In theory...Over enough time this IS possible, they call this phenomenon evolution.

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InvisibleShroominit
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: fltdriver82]
    #10199297 - 04/20/09 01:33 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

No offense here, but I believe that he does not understand mushroom genetics to that extent... and neither do I... which is why I made this post.

If he or yourself know that for a fact it can't be done, please let me know why or how you know this. Otherwise I will wait for someone who does. Thanks for the speculations though I do appreciate the willingness to help.

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Offlinefltdriver82
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: Shroominit]
    #10199319 - 04/20/09 01:43 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You would probably have to talk to a geneticist to get an accurate answer, only they would know for sure.  I honestly doubt that most mycologists would be that knowledgeable about the inner workings of genetics.

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Invisibled3dbdym4n

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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: fltdriver82]
    #10199778 - 04/20/09 05:27 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

From my understanding, you can only isolate a strain by cloning it directly from a tissue sample. I doubt you could get any sort of isolated strain from spores, unless you alter the genetics of a mushroom somehow to make it so the spores all produce the exact same mushrooms as the parent that dropped the spores. Best of luck.

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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: d3dbdym4n]
    #10199893 - 04/20/09 06:19 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

OP, it is my understanding that it goes the way you explained it. Say you have an isolate clone and you take spores from it. Well at first there won't be an appreciable amount of spores in the print that display characteristics of the isolate but if you do it enough times then eventually the spores should have genes similar to the isolate. It could take 50 generations or 500 generations. I could be wrong but if I remember it correctly this is how strains like PE and APE were developed.


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OfflineCyber
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: d3dbdym4n]
    #10199985 - 04/20/09 07:03 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Could this work? Sure, provided what you have selected is a genetic trait and not an environmental trait.

Here is the rub, how do you know what is a genetic trait and what is caused by the environment? Normally you would take an F2 hybrid and bread it back to the parent to identify the recessive traits within the genetics of the parent, but you can not do this so you take a guess.

Due to the genetic diversity and the average persons inability to selective bread monocilia means that to select a true genetic trait is some what of a crap shoot.

I personally say "go for it" but remember that it may take 100's of generations and after all that work you still may not get the trait you are looking for.

Add to this the fact that some traits are genetic but require environmental settings to be seen just makes it even more complicated. A good example of this is Size of the mushroom. It requires a genetic component but the environment must be just right as well.

All in all, I started down this road once, and after 50 generations of selecting a trait I gave up when I realized that the trait was caused by environmental factors.

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InvisibleShroominit
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: Cyber]
    #10200075 - 04/20/09 07:34 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

d3dbdym4n , I don't want all the spores to be the same, where's the fun in that? (actually that would be quite awesome) I only want my one trait to show up in the new generations.

LightShedder, hopefully that's how it works.

Cyber, we assume that this is a genetic trait (mutation) and not one caused by the environment because 50 other fruitbodies in the same environment do not show the trait.... We confirm this after the first isolation when we get the desired trait in one of our isolates. If we fail to get it, we either failed to get the right DNA by skipping an isolate or we don't have a genetic mutation at all!

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Offlinejscix
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: Shroominit]
    #10200226 - 04/20/09 08:13 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I would say you can safely assume, probably, otherwise, how would penis envy be possible to grow from spores ?

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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: jscix]
    #10200309 - 04/20/09 08:33 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah. I think ambition is the only obstacle.


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Offlineshroomie_glen
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: LightShedder]
    #10200461 - 04/20/09 09:03 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I have a couple pennies to toss in on this one.

The spores from a clone isolate will still have genetic diversity, just not as much as say spores from a wild print. 

The more times you isolate from a MS, the lesser and lesser the gene pool gets, thus the trait pool getts smaller and smaller, or more within the conifines of your parameters.

As someone else said, good luck, as this takes probably hundreds of times, maybe thousands,, and at the end of it you may not even have exactly what you wanted.

Roll the dice.


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OfflineCicitriz
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: Shroominit]
    #10200498 - 04/20/09 09:14 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The number of generations to make a trait breed true differs with each species.  More complex organisms (livestock) are an example to look at.  How many 'normal' cows did it take to get Holstein?  Many students of biology breed fruit fly traits for lab experiments (like red eyes) but the sheer number of generation to breed a trait true is astounding.

Made up number example.
If you take a rare trait (%1 of the time) and breed for it by cloning out some fruits and taking the spores...  then an amazing result would be %3 of the children displaying the trait.  Heck- %1.1 in a second generation would be %10 increase in expression.

For your question it depends on how common the mutation you are looking for is.  The theory of punctuated equilibrium is difficult to observe in real life, but the PE, albino and redspore type sub strains may give weight to an idea of quicker selection.  The big question is how to make it happen.

But shit, start breeding some traits into your shrooms and see, right?  Send all of the 'rejects' to some friends because it is gonna take a half ton of trial.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: Cicitriz]
    #10200708 - 04/20/09 10:06 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

It would be far faster to isolate strains on agar from spores than to clone fruits from multispore and then go back to multispore.  If you'll swipe spores on agar and then generate fifty or so isolates, fruiting each one to select the best specimen(s), and then with spores from those, repeat the isolation process, you'll get where you want to go much faster.  With humans, cows, dogs, etc., there are only two sexes.  Mycelium can have thousands of 'sexes', so the genetics become much more complex.

However, commercial growers rarely grow from spores.  They isolate mycelium for the qualities they want and then keep slants under refrigeration of their isolated strains for many years.
RR


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InvisibleShroominit
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10201848 - 04/20/09 02:08 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The reason I say that I want to use a clone prior to isolating is because the phenotype only presents itself in the fruit, not in mycelium. Thus to get the genetic trait you want, you have to see the fruit. Once you clone it to agar, you separate into isolates and use each on a separate cake to grow a few fruits, when you get one with the specific trait, you print and repeat the process.

I know the growing out and cloning each time adds to an already lengthy process, but it seems that this would be the most sure-fire way to ensure the trait you are selecting is present.

So, if I am thinking correctly a mutation causing the (example) normally blue caps to be green which can only be seen after fruiting.
Now I fruit from MS to get a green capped mushroom, then I clone the tissue to agar and isolate into (example again) 50 different sets of DNA.
Now I grow each one out on BRF cakes to get more sample fruit. I print the one(s) with green caps.

Using the print I start more cakes and repeat the above process with a green capped mushroom. This process would continue until all mushrooms grown from spores produced green caps.

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InvisibleJean-Luc Picard
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Re: [Strain-Genetics Question] The times they are a changing [Re: Shroominit]
    #10202051 - 04/20/09 02:43 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

well lets eliminate a few weird things that occur and assume for a second that within each cell, you only have 2 nuclei, and lets also assume that during the fruiting process that the number of nuclei per cell stays at 2, also assume that the green trait is a homozygous recessive trait according to Mendelian genetics...

So this would mean that if you have either 2 homozygous dominant nuclei or 2 heterozygous nuclei, the blue trait would show...if you had one that was either homozygous dominant or heterozygous and another that was homozygous recessive, then both traits would show up in the cells, call that blue-green, or i guess this would be an example of incomplete dominance...and if you have both nuclei that are homozygous recessive, then you would have all an all green trait

So during spore production...you get these two nuclei in the cell fuse in to a single nuclei with 2 sets of chromosomes...and they sort of trade genetics during the separation into 2 spores, each with one set of genetics...

so if you isolate tissue with 2 heterozygous nuclei and use the spores to make ur new batch...
1/16th chance of match up and all green on new mycelium

with all green, you will theoretically get all green, but meiosis does crazy shit like crossover...they can exchange nuclei through pores in the hyphal walls, I've heard that as the fruit/spore production time draws nigh, the number of nuclei per cell in the fruit bodies can increase...not to mention that the particular traits that you are looking for almost never follow Mendelian genetics...and if you consider polymorphic genetics...like the ones that control human eye color and hair color...that shit starts to get complicated...

hope this helps with ur venture, good luck :cool::thumbup:
agmotes165


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