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Invisibleshroomzey
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Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips
    #10187184 - 04/17/09 11:10 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Hey guys, I've been quite busy lately and haven't been able to spend as much time on these forums as I'd like to, I have a ton of personal experience I want to share with everyone but am waiting for a new camera to put some stuff out.  I'm really sorry I don't have any new visual aids for you, and I'll explain that at the bottom.

I'm here to argue the case of fruiting your bulk cubensis projects uncased.  My personal experience ranges from the BRF tek, to doing countless monotubs, and more recently fruiting in my 2 return-air greenhouses.  I've been on a constant rotation for the last 6 months in pumping out 90+ quart jars of spawn and 100+ quarts of bulk substrate a month.  I'm not coming to you without any scratches on my knees of dirt between my fingernails.

The argument for going uncased with bulk, I think is simple:

When casing a tray or tub you're spending money on the casing material, time in preparing the material, and increasing the long term chance of contamination.

I would say the only need for casing is when your environmental conditions are lacking, or you want to gain experience on casing for other species.  But, if you're going to spend any effort at all, why not spend it getting your conditions right in the first place?  When you combine the effort involved with casing, compared to the yield differences, it kind of becomes a no brainer. 

All I see is a more even pinset, with smaller fruits and just more of them without any extraordinary differences in yield.  When harvesting, yanking all of these fruits out of the casing layer just destroys the substrate surface, and with or without patching... I don't see any growth coming back from those craters.

These small fruits take longer to harvest, longer to clean, and make the substrate less attractive and healthy in the long run.  Hurting the substrate so much isn't great for subsequent flushes, for fruiting real estate and for contamination concerns.  The small fruits do dry faster than larger ones, which is a plus.  The casing layer leads to a higher chance of contamination over time, shortening the amount of flushes that sub can give you.

Being able to monitor the moisture content of a good casing layer takes experience, which first timers don't have.  If someone is doing bulk for their first time, I always suggest going uncased FIRST, learn from that, then case a later project so you have some experience.  You can then use that experience when experimenting with casing other species...  But in any other bulk scenarios... why do we need it?

When it comes to fruiting grains by themselves... you're going to need to case.  But if you're gonna go through the effort of preparing a casing layer... why not just prepare a bulk substrate and spawn to that? 

It becomes kind of obvious that its more work than its worth.


_______________________

Fruiting uncased:

I've fruited around 50 of these 4-5 quart bulk substrate blocks in my greenhouses lately and let me say, I love em.  When it comes to cleaning, spawning, the spawn run, inspecting, fruiting, dunking, rotating... these tubs that they colonize in are awesome.  If you have a greenhouse, I don't know why you haven't already started using stuff like this cause its so easy.



These are the sterilite 6 quart tubs that I colonize the blocks in, I've fruited them cased and uncased in the tubs, and also by plopping them out of the tubs and fruiting them like the picture above.


Let me explain how easy it is to work these tubs, and I'm sure anything similar:

Starting off with a clean tub, you mix and/or layer your spawn with you bulk mix.  (I prefer mixing, especially if you're gonna fruit them like I do) Make sure you leave a small thin layer of bulk sub on top of any exposed grain though.  Then, just put the lid on and label it.  You get enough gas exchange through the imperfect seal of the lid.  No foil, no poking holes, no lifting the foil off to peak at the progress.  They also stack, which you can't do with trays that have foil.  Since the tubs are clear you can visually inspect their progress at anytime, this is also handy if you spot a contamination.  You can remove the contam prior to it becoming overgrown.... I'm sure you experienced bulk growers know the pain of pulling back the foil on a tray only to find a blanket of green covering the entire surface.  It sucks.

A few days after 100% colonization(allowing the mycelium to consolidate and prepare to fruit) if everything looks good, open up the lid, and plop the substrate onto the lid and then just slide it into your greenhouse.  The beauty of this is not so much that you're exposing 5 sides, or a greater surface area.  But that by doing this it makes things a lot easier to work with.  It is SO MUCH easier to harvest from a block than from say a mono or trays, because of the side and bottom pinning.  You have to mess with the plastic lining of a mono, or sometimes the lining of a tray.  Its difficult to harvest those fruits, and they become a nuisance because of that.  This way, you can harvest from all 5 sides, and if you do get bottom pinning, its really easy to manipulate the block and just harvest those fruits.  This also makes it easier to inspect the whole substrate during any stage of fruiting.

After you've been able to harvest to your hearts content, just place the block back into the tub, fill the tub up with water, push the block down a couple times to allow the water to wash the surface, and then let it sit for 4-6 hours. While soaking use a spacer between the lid of the tub and the sub block so it submerges the block under the water. You can stack these tubs, use them the same way you did during the spawn run.  I'll then dump the water, fill it up with clean water, push it down again to wash the surface, and then plop the block back on the lid and into the green house.  It makes dunking VERY simple, very easy, and very fast.

Then, just continue this whole cycle until the block contams or you're done with it.

And you don't need to use these specific tubs, anything similar, bigger, whatever fits your situation.  Right now I'm colonizing 20 quarts of bulk sub and 10 quarts of spawn in one of my old mono tubs, which once its ready I'm gonna plop the whole thing out onto the lid and slide it into my greenhouse... that'll be interesting.

Do keep in mind though, when fruiting 5 sides of a block, you're exposing a larger surface area, which in turn allows the substrate to evaporate moisture easier, this can become a problem.  Just keep an eye on your conditions.

Another thing to mention is that when taking your blocks out of the tub... keep the exposed side of the block(what would be the top surface while in the tub) facing upwards when it is fruiting.  Do the opposite of the picture I have showing above.  Don't take the top surface and face down onto the lid, no no, face it up.  I've done this and sometimes the majority of the pinset will remain and grow from the bottom of the block, literally lifting it off the lid.  I think that fruiting the mycelium surface that is or was exposed during the spawn run is a better fruiting surface.  I think hyphae or someone in the past noticed this... and I would say it seems true.

All in all, if you're using a greenhouse I would highly suggest this tub system... makes things very easy, and if you're using larger tubs than these, it gets even simpler.  I enjoy these small ones because I've been able to do a lot of small tests with clones and isolates while still filling up my fruiting shelf space. 

And if you're NOT using a greenhouse... well don't worry about it.  One of my next posts is going to be my experiences between greenhouses and doing monos.  I think mono's are better.  I've finished a "Noob's First Guide To Bulk" tek that I want to put out, but am just waiting on a nice camera.. this way I can good quality pictures and video.


And again, I'm sorry about the lack of visuals.  I have so many pictures and examples I've been wanting to take... but soon enough I will.  I've been kicking myself in the ass because I'm in the process of buying a nice new digital camera... at first I was gonna settle with some 200$ one, but I'm thinking more in the 600$ range, and until then I have no new visuals to share.  I've been wanting to share all of my ideas as of late but I'm going to compile a lot of it into one big post in about a month.  It'll outline a bunch of information I've picked up on over the course of my first year in cultivation.  I believe I've stepped outside of the normal bounds of how much effort someone would put into this hobby in the first course of one year, and so I've learned A LOT, I've made a ton of mistakes, and yet I've also reached very pleasurable results... I'd love to pass it on.

I'm sure this thing is riddled with grammar errors and typos, I'll come back and fix them shortly.


--------------------

200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were.
My Glovebox
Find a respected member of the community and study them.  I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more.
Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.


Edited by shroomzey (04/17/09 11:12 PM)


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OfflineBugzy
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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: shroomzey]
    #10187396 - 04/17/09 11:59 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Great tek:thumbup:, looking forward too the new one.

How long to you let your tubs sit before fruiting, just a couple days or a week as you would with jars?


--------------------
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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: shroomzey]
    #10187408 - 04/18/09 12:07 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Outstanding post.

I'm digging the block idea.


--------------------
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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: shroomzey]
    #10187412 - 04/18/09 12:07 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Nice write up! very helpful indeed :mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:

5 to you

How much grain spawn to each 6qt. tub?


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Offlinekjb1891
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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: shroomzey]
    #10187481 - 04/18/09 12:24 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Excellent post shroomzey :thumbup:


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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: shroomzey]
    #10187493 - 04/18/09 12:26 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds like a nice easy system. I'm just now stepping up from brf cakes in a pmp chamber, to spawning to coir in a monotub. I can't wait to hear your take on monotubs. Sounds like you've got some real sound simple ideas.


--------------------
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Invisibleshroomzey
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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: kjb1891]
    #10187527 - 04/18/09 12:35 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I'll let my tubs sit for about 3 days after 100%, lately I've been going for a higher spawn ration of around 3 quarts of bulk to two quart jars (or 1.5 total quarts) of spawn.  At a 2:1 ratio, I'll usually hit 100% at 6-8 days, then fruit 3 after.  This speeds things up considerably.  I'd opt to a higher spawn ratio because:

Its faster, which also means less chance of contamination, and more grain nutrients.

Something else I should have mentioned above is paying attention to consolidation, some people like the even pinset you get with casing and dislike the uneven pinset you get with going uncased.  To make that uncased pinset more even and prolific, you have to consolidate.  I would wage the people that argue poor uncased performance aren't consolidating adequately prior to fruiting.


--------------------

200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were.
My Glovebox
Find a respected member of the community and study them.  I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more.
Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.


Edited by shroomzey (04/18/09 12:49 AM)


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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: shroomzey]
    #10188839 - 04/18/09 11:43 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shroomzey said:
Something else I should have mentioned above is paying attention to consolidation, some people like the even pinset you get with casing and dislike the uneven pinset you get with going uncased.  To make that uncased pinset more even and prolific, you have to consolidate.  I would wage the people that argue poor uncased performance aren't consolidating adequately prior to fruiting.



As someone who consistently has had better results casing vs not, I found your post interesting.

When you say "consolidation", what exactly do you mean?
Letting your tubs sit for about 3 days after 100%, prior to being put in the FC?


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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #10188902 - 04/18/09 11:58 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Have you used a 1:1 ratio before, or noticed any considerable difference between a 1:1 and a 1:2 ratios?

I strongly agree with you on the consolidation fact, I caught onto that unused method in a lot of threads where people are having troubles w/ uncased subs.

Always make sure your jars and your subs are fully consolidated before spawning or fruiting.

What do you use for substrate mixes? Im not sure if you posted that or not, a lot of useful info to think about.


--------------------
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Invisibleshroomzey
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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: Bugzy]
    #10191853 - 04/18/09 09:18 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, thats what I mean by consolidation.  What materials have you used for casing?

The second thing to ask yourself is when you see consistently better results, could it be due to sub par conditions?  And don't take that offensively, some newer people(and I made this mistake) cased and saw better results, without realizing I did a real shitty job with the uncased.  Casing works when you're conditions aren't good, but when they are(and you're using the right technique), thats when you see little difference in yield.  See, casing is almost like a professionals tool, if you're really good at casing, you can pull better yields but at the cost of a lot of effort and experience and the negatives I listed above.  But, you only see those improvements after you've maxed out your ability to fruit uncased, and then gained experienced.  See why its not a noob friendly technique?  Another thing to mention, when trying to grow as a cultivator and when you want to move onto other species, casing is a skill, and so is timing consolidation.  Another thing to be mentioned... is that when timing consolidation, keeping the mycelium in the dark during that part of the colonization phase could be beneficial, so that when you do introduce all pinning triggers at once, the light trigger is switched too.  However, in all other stages of colonization, you could ignore the whole "light" thing, during spawn runs light doesn't really matter.


.
Quote:

Bugzy said:
Have you used a 1:1 ratio before, or noticed any considerable difference between a 1:1 and a 1:2 ratios?

I strongly agree with you on the consolidation fact, I caught onto that unused method in a lot of threads where people are having troubles w/ uncased subs.

Always make sure your jars and your subs are fully consolidated before spawning or fruiting.

What do you use for substrate mixes? Im not sure if you posted that or not, a lot of useful info to think about.




I don't like going to 1:1, I think you lose the water retention that the bulk sub helps provide once you go past 1:2, and you don't get "that" much faster.  I haven't witnessed a huge difference though, just preference. 

If you're doing BRF cakes, then yes consolidate, but when working with grain jars there is no need to consolidate when doing G2G or when spawning them, its after you've spawn to bulk that you consolidate... whatever last stage in the mycelium cycle prior to fruiting is where you want to consolidate.

My bulk mix hovers around 65 coir / 20 verm/ 10 coffe/ 5 gypsum.  Whenever I get horse manure or straw I'll throw those in in no more than 30%, but this is the base.


--------------------

200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were.
My Glovebox
Find a respected member of the community and study them.  I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more.
Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.


Edited by shroomzey (04/18/09 09:29 PM)


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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: shroomzey]
    #10191949 - 04/18/09 09:41 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I don't like going to 1:1, I think you lose the water retention that the bulk sub helps provide once you go past 1:2, and you don't get "that" much faster.  I haven't witnessed a huge difference though, just preference.

If you're doing BRF cakes, then yes consolidate, but when working with grain jars there is no need to consolidate when doing G2G or when spawning them, its after you've spawn to bulk that you consolidate... whatever last stage in the mycelium cycle prior to fruiting is where you want to consolidate.




Thanks for answering my long pondered questions, and saving me a lot of time/waiting, and spawn. Now I can get twice as much out of my spawn and save some substrate moisture.

I was under the impression that you had too consolidate the grain jars and then the substrate, I was thinkin that would be a long road too fruiting, but now Im up to speed.

All your really doing with a 1:1 is wasting a grows/tubs worth of spawn if your not getting noticeable differences.

Appreciate the advice and will be looking forward to more threads from ya

:mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::thumbup:


--------------------
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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: Bugzy]
    #10192041 - 04/18/09 10:04 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

This is a really well written post. Alot of good information and great obsorvations.

To make it more scientific you could get this down on isolates, unless you have already done so.

That has always been my thinking about casing layers. With cubensis they dont seem to have much benifit. tweak your conditoins and you wont need em.

Keep up the great work. and get those pictures up!!!

Before you know it, you'll have a TC under your name


--------------------

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Invisibleshroomzey
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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: veda_sticks]
    #10192156 - 04/18/09 10:32 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

veda_sticks said:
This is a really well written post. Alot of good information and great obsorvations.

To make it more scientific you could get this down on isolates, unless you have already done so.

That has always been my thinking about casing layers. With cubensis they dont seem to have much benifit. tweak your conditoins and you wont need em.

Keep up the great work. and get those pictures up!!!

Before you know it, you'll have a TC under your name




Yes, recently using these tubs I tested MGMC and 50/50+(peat/verm+lime) versus uncased in the tubs, and uncased plopped out with a clone and an isolate.  I just didn't want to speak up too much until I finally tested this with an isolate, and now that I have I decided to bring this together.  I usually don't like spitting this stuff out without picture proof but it has been a long time observation that was validated with the grows I mentioned above.

And the TC tag is flattering, but I'd rather not require a tag for noobs to consider my advice sound or not.  Those that are eager to learn and want to be successful will go through every post by someone they think might be right.  And those that won't do that, wouldn't take my advice with a tag or not.  If someone doesn't like or take my advice, so be it, who knows some of my advice could actually be harmful and in 4 years is proven to be out-dated, so who cares. I base my advice on my personal results and experience that is also reinforced by experienced cultivators.  If anything, the only recognition I aim to get is from those who have been cultivating for many many years; if I can get a wink of approval from those guys I know I'm doing something right.  I've only dedicated myself to this hobby for 11 months, so I wouldn't say I'm "experienced" enough to deserve that tag, I will argue that I've done much much more than what the average person does in their first year though.


--------------------

200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were.
My Glovebox
Find a respected member of the community and study them.  I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more.
Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.


Edited by shroomzey (04/18/09 10:42 PM)


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OfflineLaden
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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: shroomzey]
    #10192438 - 04/18/09 11:47 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)











casing bulk trays rocks!

and dont always produce tiny fruits!



depends on if you know what your doing.

I dont disagree with you if you can get away with it. just in IME its harder to fruit bulk uncased in a greenhouse. I never understood why everybody alawys says greenhouses are not suitable for doing cakes, but at the saame time casings in a greenhouse are a waste of time. Then they say treat an uncased sub like its a big cake??? i dont get it. What works for me may be too much work for you, but i find, for me, it definitly increases yields! Is really not that much more work when you use MGMC though. Just add verm, pasturize in jars ala RR and case, wait three days and fruit. peace! keep up the good work though! It seems you are happy with your method so do your thing brah!!!! Looks good!


--------------------
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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: shroomzey]
    #10192517 - 04/19/09 12:12 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Hi: A very good write up. I just wish it had come a week a go before I broke up two big trays of colonized substrate and mixed in with some fresh substrate to fill out a mono tub. Every thing going fine but I came say that I've been sweating it out the last few days. I've been vacillating over whether to case or not. It would have worked great if I could have just pop out the consolidate trays and use the mono tub as an automated green house.

Now I have both an observation and question in one if that is possible. Back in the 70's I use to drive down from the army hospital there in the PNW to family in SCal and back twice a year. On my way back up I would stop and buy fresh leaf cuttings from show African Violets to raise and sell. One of the nursery showed me how to make a green house for transporting them using a very large foam cooler with about three inches of perlite in the bottom that was half filled with water. Not only did the perlite keep the cooler humid it would also keep the Jeffy 7 pots watered by the capillary action of the perlite. When I was back home I would just take the lid off and replace it with a pane of glass and a grow light. It worked great and all I had to do was add some water to the perlite from time to time. That's the observation part. The question I have is would this work with the consolidated blocks where the perlite is by capillary action helping to keep the blocks hydrated?

I've taken my time and built a fully automated mono tub with a custom close circuit ultra sonic humidifier and air exchange system that's modeled on Shrooms MES system with a one liter a minute air pump that's on 24/7 and a five liter a minute air pump that comes on with the foggier unit every three hours for five minutes, both have .3 micron bacterial filters on the air lines. I feel that I'm well covered there. I'm just not clear about the perlite and I've never grown cakes so I have no experience using perlite in this way. Thank You; Hipster


Edited by CheeWiz (04/19/09 03:18 PM)


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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: CheeWiz]
    #10341718 - 05/15/09 04:19 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Great post, definitely gonna try this.


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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: weskes]
    #10341825 - 05/15/09 05:12 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

super post man,very informative and well written. Im trying uncased bulk mono at the moment(1st time uncased), can I ask you and other experiences users, on average, how many days from putting into fruiting do you expect to see pins forming.

My condition, as far as Im aware are pretty much perfect, sub looks lovey and moist, lots o knots, and water bubbles on surface, tub is not dripping water down the sides but looks pretty damm humid in there. proper 6500k lights and temps in teh 68 -70 range.

Im getting the jitters, its only been 5 days so far in fruiting tho.

:confused:


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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: FractalXplora]
    #10341854 - 05/15/09 05:33 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I have found that making large 'cakes' withtout casing them like this does lead to a few issues.


-drying out / breaking

- contams

- undergrowth (mushrooms under the cake)



My cakes I did like this for a while would dry out a lot since their flushes. and with all that exposed mycelium, it sort of becomes impervious to soaking up much water, eventually it will become a large brick of hard mycelium.


Also, since there is no casing layer, whenever you pick fruits, it opens up a 'wound' into the brick itself. Not that this is bad, but this is where a lot of my contams would enter.


Undergrowth underneath the cake also makes things difficult, because mushrooms under there will rot quickly and draw flies and smell. These are hard to get to unless you move your cake around every flush, which isn't bad ifyour dunking, but I usually broke a piece or in half most of the cakes I had untill I was good at 'floating' them in water.




I'm not knocking this method, I really loved it whenever I tried it. I say go with what works, but I jsut described some things to look out for.








this GT cake is one that I 'cased' with vermiulite, but I ended up fruiting it out of tray because of side pinning. The verm layer ended up washing off after the first dunk. except a small part colonized. The layer was 100 verm so it just turned into a wet mess.


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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: aspore]
    #13749621 - 01/07/11 10:00 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Great information in this thread. I have had success fruiting using this method which I found with the search function. Considering this information was useful to me, I thought others might get something from it as well, this is why I'm bumping an older thread.

Cheers


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Re: Fruiting Bulk Uncased, The Argument & Some Tips [Re: shroomzey]
    #14238453 - 04/04/11 10:40 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

sorry to bump this old post, but shroomzey (if youre even still visiting the forum), you still dont case after the first flush? i am going to go uncased but ive been told i should case prior to the following flushes.. your tek looks good and is pretty similar to what i was going to do anyway (first grow) ... are your following flushes as good as the first yield wise? and how humid is your greenhouse when you have the bulks colonizing?


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