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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: DontPlay]
    #10197546 - 04/19/09 07:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Crasher has a point, and the experience to back up his opinions, but just cuz money isn't getting to troops doesn't mean we need more money.  We may just need to make sure our troops have enough shit to make them safe rather then investing money in fancy fighter planes.  Lets make sure we have suitable armor and weaponry for our troops that works for the conditions in which they are deployed before we blow money on fancy things.


And I agree with alan.  (btw alan, the right to privacy comes from the ninth amendment, read roe v wade and griswold v connecticut (spelling?)  Personally I think roe was wrongly decided and they just pulled trimesters out of their asses, but that's just me.  I do believe the right to privacy exists in the ninth, but I also believe it only exists when the government doesn't have a specifically delineated contrary right in the given application.  i.e. you have the right to enter into private transactions but you don't have that right in interstate comerce so far as the limitation is reasonably related to congresses authority to regulate such effectivly)







Nineinchenails:



I'm not interested in watching youtube videos.  If I had to guess I'd say I've looked into this much more than you and am willing to be I'm allready well aware of these things.  I may be wrong, and am not trying to say you should trust me but rather assuring you I am probably not ignorant of the things you speak of so far as they actually exist.


Either way, I'm not going to search out your argument in those videos.




Please cite the abrogations of our rights in the patriot act.  I can understand your outrage over its passage, but the signifigance you place on the act is a bit much.  (and I'd like to see you cite the provisions that elimante all those rights.)



Many people with your position seem ignorant to what the fourth amendment law really was prior to the patriot act and so think the measure was some revolutionary change when it really wasn't.  (same with the wiretaps, habeos corpus arguments, jurisdictional limitations on it, et cet)



Alan is right:  the major abuses existed long before the patriot act, and the patriot act in many cases just encoded procedures that were allready legal.  Same as the outrage over the wiretaps- the government always had the authority to do that when targeting the people bush claims to be targeting.



Yes its wrong, but i think your presuming a more robust state of fourth amendment and habeas protection then really exists.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: NineInchNails]
    #10197608 - 04/19/09 07:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Nine inch, Here's specifically what I find troubling about your assertions.  Like I said, the law needs to be changed, but these things in particular I feel are incorrect or overblown:



Quote:

NineInchNails said:

The patriot act names the citizens of the US unlawful combatants.





Not true

The president has the authority to prosecute wars.  This includes dealing with combatents.



Quote:

We CAN be treated like enemies of war. No right to a speedy trial, held without being shown the evidence against us, no warrant required, etc...




Yes, and you always could.  Regardless nobody is being held as such that I'm aware of, and the patriot act didn't allow it, its just the presidents authority as commander in chief and congresses stupid authorizations that gave him plennary authority.


Quote:


You can be held for an 'undetermined' length of time, tortured (legaly of course), just to name a few.




You have the right to habeas corpus, the right to not be tortured.  The disagreement is over what torture is.  The government can only hold you in this way if you are a war criminal, and you still have rights to contest that determination.


Quote:


You guys are so apathetic it�s ridiculous





This is what I find arrogant.  When someone disagrees with you you presume ignorance and laziness.  You don't know what level of reading we've done on the issue and it doesn't matter- support your contentions.

Quote:


Let�s just make it legal for cops to search without warrants just because my friends happen to be state troopers �




Where has this been said?  The ability of cops to search without warrants is largely unchanged.  What sepcifically are you referring to?

Quote:


I suppose Habeus Corpus doesn�t mean a damn thing because �our government can be trusted' � OH and don�t worry �your government loves you� and they would NEVER do anything like that even though they could under the revised constitution. Let�s just �assume� that the Patriot Act is our friend because �the name sounds nice' and apathy is convenient.





The patriot act doesn't eliminate habeas corpus and the government does not have the right to deprive a citezin of such no matter where in the world they are.  Your going to have to cite this contention.
Quote:


Does that make any sense? No it doesn't,






Like the other poster said, these are mostly straw men arguments that weren't made.  What was said was that while your concern is admirable your beliefs may be a bit off.


I agree we need change in fourth amendment law among others, but to think the patriot act was some major change that eliminated all our rights is silly beyond belief.  Many of the things you've stated here aren't true.

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Offline2859558484
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: johnm214]
    #10198099 - 04/19/09 09:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

dude its a conspiracy!!!
alex jones said so!!!


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OfflineLancaster
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: 2859558484]
    #10198234 - 04/19/09 09:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

johnm214 said most of what I was going to, but let me add this:

There is a lot of potential for abuse when it comes to executive authority. There is undoubtedly much we do not know that goes on behind the scenes. There are parts of currently active laws that are very disturbing. The thing is, all of this is potential danger, not actual danger. The days of Bush are over. We endured 8 years of abuse of power and unconstitutional behavior. Many arabs and even some Europeans were imprisoned unjustly, and it was a tragedy. We entered into a massive police action that has, by some estimates, killed hundreds of thousands of people, including thousands of our own soldiers.

And we know about it. Watchdog organizations like the ACLU hover over our leaders constantly, checking them for signs of tyrannical behavior. Obama is ordering secret memos uncovered, and the Attorney General has declared "advanced interrogation techniques" (torture) outlawed. Within the first several weeks of his term, Obama reversed many of Bush's most dictatorial policies. To date, it is his greatest accomplishment.

And yet you still think we are under the reign of Bush. You link us to conspiracy theorist websites and show us videos made during Bush's term. The heyday of these websites is over, for now. If these massive new world order conspiracies were going to happen, they would have happened years ago. It looks to me like you've aligned yourself with these paranoid groups, and now that martial law was never imposed, and the police never kicked in your door, you are at a loss for what to do. Open the blinds and stop buying rations. Things are getting better.


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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: roby000]
    #10198497 - 04/19/09 10:20 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Roby000



my facts are pretty straight.




Quote:

DontPlay said:
Why do I get the feeling your law enforcement or military. 




:lol:


--------------------
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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: Crasher]
    #10199178 - 04/20/09 01:01 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I don't see how your drawing some huge difference between obama and bush.  Obama is still holding those guys in cuba, supported the fisa bill, supports the present patriot act, is seemingly doing nothing different on iraq, and is expanding afghanistan where surely we will get a bunch more or these prisoners.


I don't see what was so bad about the imprisoning anyways, the bad part was simply the lack of any adequate process for them to contest the legality of their detention and the lack of transaparency, initially.


Only thing I've seen obama do is say he's not going to use the disputed interrogation tactics, which is a promise which really isnothing more than a promise, and say he'll move the prisoners in cuba elsewhere- which doesn't change anything but perception.


If obama came out and gave the detainees some legal rights or did anything about the patriot act and fisa bills he said he was against, before he voted for them, that might be something.  All I can see is him lieing on these matters and then saying he'll use the army field manual for interrogations and close quanatanamo.


I just cannot see the difference there worthy of your distinction.

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OfflineFellowGrower
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: johnm214]
    #10199664 - 04/20/09 04:22 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

For some reason I think if you asked a jew in Germany if he thought that his fellow countymen had it in them to pack em in boxcars and gas em, they would have said "Don't be silly""They would never"

My point: THey would; if, they thought (or were someway manipulated into believing) that; they were doing it to "Save the country"

I love this discussion! It really breaks my heart when people go out of their way to lead a horse to water; but the S.O.B. WON'T DRINK IT!:banghead::hulk::cruelworld:

My advice (to those that think we're "Conspiracy THeorist") is; "Nevermind, ...you believe what you want, Stay in the bubble; it's safer in there!" You don't want the truth. You want Obama and his media moguls to LIE to ya make it sound FLY to ya

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: FellowGrower]
    #10199696 - 04/20/09 04:39 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

For some reason I think if you asked a jew in Germany if he thought that his fellow countymen had it in them to pack em in boxcars and gas em, they would have said "Don't be silly""They would never"

My point: THey would; if, they thought (or were someway manipulated into believing) that; they were doing it to "Save the country"





Yea they do it all the time, its called "the war on drugs".

Something worse than conspiracy that you suspected is actually operating right in front of your face, funded by everyones tax dollars.  A mass kidnapping campaign.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #10199752 - 04/20/09 05:15 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I see instead of answering the well articulated objections to the just plain incorrect and overblown assertions above you've decided to just take on a superior attitude and bang your head against the wall as if this is frustrating to you.



Protip:  Not making shit up, knowing your facts, and providing those facts convinces people.  Saying a bunch of incorrect stuff and refusing to answer challenges doesn't.



I don't even know wtf you are arguing about.  Everyone here seems to agree the patriot act and such sucks, so what exactly are you talking about?  Who went out of their way to lead a horse to water?  A bunch of false and silly claims were made.  I went out of my way to identify them and why they were silly.  Then when it sets in that reality doesn't match your opinion you throw a fit rather than providing evidence to support whatever it is you are claiming- which you've not shared with us.


:thumbdown:


agree with allan, their is real stuff happening right in front of us that both parties participate in and promote.  Do something about that and read up on what the patriot act actually did and what the current state of the fourth amendment is.  :thumbup:

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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #10200292 - 04/20/09 08:30 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I'm a reptile and someday all of you will be my prey.


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Offline2859558484
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: DontPlay]
    #10200848 - 04/20/09 10:29 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DontPlay said:
Lancaster there is plenty of proof that says otherwise about the impending martial law.

Bush threatened congress with martial law if they didn't pass his first  bailout bill(5 trillion) for starters.

Detainment camps all over the US ran by FEMA ( they are prison camps, 800 of them) heres one link
http://www.infowars.net/articles/february2008/210208Camps.htm

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO504B.html

http://www.populistamerica.com/open_martial_law_coming_to_america

There are hundreds of links from the last several years, its been coming weve been warned numerous times but people are to lazy to pay attention.





LOL how could anyone link to one of alex jone's websites as a ref?
How could anyone take something seriously thats obviously such a money making venture. He believes in the reptile overlords for god's sake.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: 2859558484]
    #10202311 - 04/20/09 03:24 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

How could anyone take something seriously thats obviously such a money making venture. He believes in the reptile overlords for god's sake.




You are confusing Alex Jones with David Icke.  Alex Jones doesn't believe in reptilians as far as I know.

I am glad Alex Jones is there, if the government does try to pull something at least he will help get the word out.

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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #10202505 - 04/20/09 04:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:ooo:
he is a scam artist of sorts in my eyes
his website is laden with so many ads
lol maybe he doesnt believe in the reptiles but im sure i could find a mass of conspiracies that he offers on DVD for sale that have a laughable basis. like fema camps.


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OfflineFellowGrower
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: 2859558484]
    #10204461 - 04/20/09 10:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:rofl2::banghead: ... you people just don't get it...and its okay; I don't expect you to...I wouldn't wish this curse (of knowing the truth) on my worst enemy... Nevermind; forget I ever said anything; You're "Right" ...nothings wrong... We're okay... I'm chicken little... whatever whatever...

I don't give a fuck... Look it up yourself...I already have; and I'm telling you..."It anit lookin too pretty out here"  you wanna know what that means? here, I'll get you started... Google video:(or youtube) these: "Fema Coffins" "Rex 84" "Project Bluebeam" "Phil Schnider" "Baltic Dry index"
"New world order" "Obama Revealed" or "Obama Deception" "Illumanati" "Why 2pac got shot" "Hip Hop revealed" or "Hip Hop uncovered" "David Koresh"  "Black Out" "Chemtrails" ...just to name a few... I'm tellin you man, FUCK THE MATRIX! Take the red pill! you DON'T wanna know how deep the rabbit hole goes!

....any questions?

EDIT: Oh, and for the love of GOD, don't get me started on 911... we could be here all night... but I think thats where it starts...once you realize the truth about that... THEN; you get it... so, I suggest you start there, Goole video "911 truth."

watch that video in my sig.


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Edited by FellowGrower (04/20/09 10:42 PM)

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OfflineLancaster
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: FellowGrower]
    #10204591 - 04/20/09 10:58 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:facepalm:


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: FellowGrower]
    #10205321 - 04/21/09 02:24 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

.I wouldn't wish this curse (of knowing the truth) on my worst enemy...




If you want to know the truth look at history.  The US has existed a long time and things have mostly been just fine so far, and slowly improving.  There is every reason to believe that things will remain generally pretty good.  If anything the advent of the internet is changing the world for the better by decentralizing news sources and getting more information to the people.

Quote:

Oh, and for the love of GOD, don't get me started on 911... we could be here all night... but I think thats where it starts...once you realize the truth about that... THEN; you get it... so, I suggest you start there, Goole video "911 truth."




Why does it matter who did 9/11?  I am pretty sure its defense contractors.  So its basically people who work in the government.  Who cares?  How would you behave differently if you knew exactly who did it?  People care less and less about 9/11 every day, though the people who did it are surely still alive.

The evil things that the US government does are no secret.  They aren't going to stick you in a FEMA camp.  They have never done that to anyone except the Japanese and you can't be productive and pay taxes there.  They are thousands of times more likely to find a pot stem in your garbage and raid your house and point guns at you and imprison you at taxpayer expense.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: FellowGrower]
    #10205359 - 04/21/09 02:48 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know if your trolling for reactions or what.


But basically- you believe shit that's patently false, then criticize others for not beleving in *somthing* (you still haven't told us) and then throw a fit when people ask for evidence that what you say is true.



What always perplexes me is how folks like this get mad if others don't accept their beliefs on blind faith.  Whats more, it is hard to believe they themselves believe it on anything more than blind fiath given their consistant inability to communicate the basis for their beliefs to others.  And the kicker is these are the same folks who rail against the silliness of following the government's marching orders without critical self aprisal or adhering to a religions dogma unquestionably.



You guys are all about the faith- you just pick and choose what you want to believe and throw a fit if others don't adopt your world view as soon as you whine on some message board about some incoherent nonsense you refuse to explain.


and 9/11 is really off topic.  Start another thread if you think there is some possible way that has anything to do with this forum's topic.

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OfflineFellowGrower
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: johnm214]
    #10205649 - 04/21/09 06:50 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

1st of all; I'm not whining, 2nd of all, I just told you it's fine, nothings wrong and that everythings gonna be okay... So what that there's a guy creeping in your house late at night with a hatchet...I highly doubt he's gonna chop you up...He prolly just wants to talk... Read this!

I don't make "Baseless assertions" I Assert that I know what I'm talking about; but I'm not gonna sit here and waste my time showing you things that you wont believe. I told you what to search; if, you did that, then you would know what I'm talking about.

ANALOGY: I can show you where the church is; but I'm not gonna preach to you... if you wanna know what we believe; and why, YOU gotta SEEK IT.

How bout this: I DARE YOU to look into it!(the things listed above) Double dog dare you!

you wouldn't back down from a dare would you?

All you have to lose, ...is your faith in humanity
(so don't do it)(or you'll be sorry)

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InvisibleDontPlay
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: FellowGrower]
    #10205679 - 04/21/09 07:07 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Imagine that coming out of Alan Rockefeller said. Just look at his last name lol.

Son to say who cares who carried out 9/11 is offensive and makes you sound like a traitor or even a terrorist. Are you ?

This is getting a bit ridiculous people refuse to believe truths that are out there. They want to believe there lives in the hands of world leaders they THINK they elected (your not really picking they pick for you)to better the world. They do not care about you and me or for the better of the people.

So when your homeless or your house is being raided for weapons and food supplies by your own US army, or UN foreign troops and there raping your wife, ripping your family apart and sending you to a "fema camp" then don't come crying asking for help. Simple as that, end of story.

The world is much more than sports, music, clothing, cars, and the latest gossip...Wake up be prepared, and don't let yourself be fooled. Throughout history man kind has had to fight for its freedom what makes you think it won't be needed again ?

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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens [Re: DontPlay]
    #10205762 - 04/21/09 07:45 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You're right. The government is going to raid my house for weapons and food then rape my wife because it is all in their best interest right??

And yeah definitely, the world isn't all about sports, music, clothing, cars etc. Those things are just a distraction so we'll get all big and juicy so someday obama and hilary clinton can eat us.

So because throughout history man has had to fight for freedom, that automatically means that the U.S. government is going to turn against its own citizens?

You know if it were like you say it is, then because of your anti-american and slightly terroristic rants that you are openly expressing on the internet, the "big mean nazi government" would track you down, come and rape YOUR wife and kill you dead after they torture you. But they won't. Because they don't give a shit. They are fine with silly people believing outrageous things about them because they understand that there are crazy people in the world.


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