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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: FlickeryVision]
    #10163833 - 04/14/09 12:33 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

But where is proof that a single cell is not conscious on some level?


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10163836 - 04/14/09 12:34 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Cells are enormously complex, but none are conscious.



I would beg to differ.  Even such a scientific mind as Lynn Margulis has postulated that cells might be conscious.  I take it further and say that consciousness(or subjectivity, to put it in less bold terms) goes all the way up and all the way down.




Lynn postulates that because she is philosophically naive.  As is the case with most scientists.

If cells are conscious they aren't conscious in the sense that we are.  Reductio ad absurdum.


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OfflineCubie
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10163839 - 04/14/09 12:34 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Cells are enormously complex, but none are conscious.



I would beg to differ.  Even such a scientific mind as Lynn Margulis has postulated that cells might be conscious.  I take it further and say that consciousness(or subjectivity, to put it in less bold terms) goes all the way up and all the way down.




I believe the same thing.
This has a good video explaining the consciousness of cells.

Its really very interesting when you think about the connectivity of tripping or meditating.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10163850 - 04/14/09 12:36 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
If cells are conscious they aren't conscious in the sense that we are.  Reductio ad absurdum.



Of course they aren't conscious in the way we are.  You'd have to be a fool to think that.  What I'm saying is that human consciousness emerges from lower levels of subjectivity.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10163854 - 04/14/09 12:37 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Cells are enormously complex, but none are conscious.



I would beg to differ.  Even such a scientific mind as Lynn Margulis has postulated that cells might be conscious.  I take it further and say that consciousness(or subjectivity, to put it in less bold terms) goes all the way up and all the way down.




I agree.  Consciousness is not a black or white thing; I suspect it's instead a matter of degree.

Quote:

FlickeryVision said:
You assume that something cannot exceed the sum of it's parts. Surely cells when put together correctly can FORM a concious being?




Yeah, you can always advocate emergentism.  I think that's much harder to explain than if one postulates a smooth, graded continuum of consciousness though.


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OfflineFlickeryVision
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: Icelander]
    #10163855 - 04/14/09 12:37 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

lol there isn't!


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OfflineCubie
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: FlickeryVision]
    #10163864 - 04/14/09 12:40 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


I agree.  Consciousness is not a black or white thing; I suspect it's instead a matter of degree.




me too

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: deCypher]
    #10163885 - 04/14/09 12:42 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said: Cells are enormously complex, but none are conscious.




Source?  How else can you claim that a collection of cells is conscious then?

0 + 0 + ... + 0 is still 0; instead I believe we have to attribute to each cell a much lesser degree of consciousness but not abnegate it entirely.




Then you are using a different definition of consciousness.

Consciousness does not occur along a gradient.  It is either one or the other.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10163892 - 04/14/09 12:43 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

OK, so to you a spatiotemporal region either possesses consciousness or it does not.  How are you defining consciousness, and by what criteria may we decide whether a particular region has it?


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: deCypher]
    #10163909 - 04/14/09 12:46 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Conscious
1. a. Having an awareness of one's environment and one's own existence, sensations, and thoughts. See Synonyms at aware.
  b. Mentally perceptive or alert; awake: The patient remained fully conscious after the local anesthetic was administered.

2. Capable of thought, will, or perception: the development of conscious life on the planet.

3. Subjectively known or felt: conscious remorse.

4. Intentionally conceived or done; deliberate: a conscious insult; made a conscious effort to speak more clearly.

5. Inwardly attentive or sensible; mindful: was increasingly conscious of being watched.

6. Especially aware of or preoccupied with. Often used in combination: a cost-conscious approach to further development; a health-conscious diet.

Consciousness

1.  The state or condition of being conscious.

2. A sense of one's personal or collective identity, including the attitudes, beliefs, and sensitivities held by or considered characteristic of an individual or group: Love of freedom runs deep in the national consciousness.

3. a. Special awareness or sensitivity: class consciousness; race consciousness.
  b. Alertness to or concern for a particular issue or situation: a movement aimed at raising the general public's consciousness of social injustice.

4. In psychoanalysis, the conscious.

Cells have any of this?  Please elaborate.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: deCypher]
    #10163916 - 04/14/09 12:49 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
OK, so to you a spatiotemporal region either possesses consciousness or it does not.  How are you defining consciousness, and by what criteria may we decide whether a particular region has it?




No regions of the brain have consciousness in and of themselves.  Being conscious needs the brain and the mind.

This runs back to the argument about the immateriality of the mind.  Do you remember it?


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10163924 - 04/14/09 12:51 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
If cells are conscious they aren't conscious in the sense that we are.  Reductio ad absurdum.



Of course they aren't conscious in the way we are.  You'd have to be a fool to think that.  What I'm saying is that human consciousness emerges from lower levels of subjectivity.




Is there a philosophical position behind this?  If so, I'd like to see it.  On its face it seems to have nothing going for it but wishful thinking.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10163927 - 04/14/09 12:51 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

You're resorting to a common dictionary to discuss philosophical matters?  For shame!  All I see in that list is vague allusions towards Awareness, which is about as precisely defined as Consciousness is to begin with.

Like Justice Stewart said, "I can't define it but I know it when I see it."  I think much the same is true for consciousness; we ourselves experience it and thus know very well what it is but to lay out an explicit philosophical definition seems to be impossible.  We assume that other people are conscious, and we base this assumption upon behavioristic methodologies.  It seems necessary that we apply the same tack to Artificial Intelligence a la Turing Test; if it behaves identically to a conversing human then we must necessarily attribute it consciousness.

With regards to a cell, however, I think we must also accord it some level of minute awareness.  How else does awareness enter the picture with a collection of a few billion cells?  Does it miraculously jump into the picture once we've exceed 17,324,5601 cells?  Or instead does the level of consciousness increase the more synaptic connections and complexity we add?  My argument for levels of awareness is rooted in the fact that consciousness does not appear to be a singular, unchanging thing--we can see that pharmacology can certainly change the nature of the beast, not to mention the fact that lesioning areas of the brain produces a marked decrease in fundamental awareness.


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OfflineCubie
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10163937 - 04/14/09 12:53 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)



Cells and jumps of consciousness





Since noone probably even looked at the link in my post.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10163943 - 04/14/09 12:54 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Cells have any of this?  Please elaborate.



I would say that cells possess subjectivity.  They can "feel" their environment and respond to it.  I say even quarks have this ability.  Each level of consciousness can apprehend more and more of the world around it.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: deCypher]
    #10163956 - 04/14/09 12:57 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Well put.  Of course I was using common definitions.  We are, after all, having a common conversation.  The philosophy of mind is a fascinating subject.  Since all of us use our minds in these discussions--some with greater facility than others :wink: --it has bearing on every discussion.

Consciousness is, for all we know, dependent on the brain.  The brain is a necessary condition for the mind.  That does not mean that the brain is a sufficient condition for the mind.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10163966 - 04/14/09 12:58 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

It is either one or the other.

Gotta love definitive statements. Either you got proof or just another religious nut.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineCubie
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10163973 - 04/14/09 12:59 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Consciousness is, for all we know, dependent on the brain.




We don't know to much in that area though

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10163988 - 04/14/09 01:02 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Cells have any of this?  Please elaborate.



I would say that cells possess subjectivity.  They can "feel" their environment and respond to it.  I say even quarks have this ability.  Each level of consciousness can apprehend more and more of the world around it.




But that, in no way, correlates with any of the definitions I posted.  I admit it, it sounds wonderful, however, I think it is an indefensible position.

Is this your own idea?  Not that that has any bearing on its validity.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Do you feel you belong here? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10163993 - 04/14/09 01:02 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Consciousness is, for all we know, dependent on the brain.



For all I know, consciousness is entirely confined to me.  I can't actually measure consciousness.  I can only know that I am conscious.  For all I know, you guys could all be robots programmed to pretend you're conscious.


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