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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Cubie]
    #10164227 - 04/14/09 01:43 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Read my post and try to answer the objections I brought up.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineCubie
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Stonehenge]
    #10164245 - 04/14/09 01:47 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

im assuming your talking about this picture




tell me exactly how you are judging the distance of this planet???

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Stonehenge]
    #10164533 - 04/14/09 02:30 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I invite those who totally believe the "enhanced" photo to take a second look.



I believe that image is a decent representation of photons hitting a sensor with an energy we can't see with our eyes. I don't say I believe it's a planet orbiting the star, not sure about that.

Quote:

Do you see those rays coming off it? You can see bright rays coming out to a distance of about 1/4 the diameter of the star and fainter rays coming out to about 1/2 the diameter. Not even solar flares are anywhere near that big and they are rare events.



The images were made using a Earth based telescope, atmospheric distortions probably are the main cause. It may also be result of diffraction and other sensor "errors". Larger space based telescopes generally produce smaller stars :laugh:

Quote:

Plus the apparent diameters suggest it's not a planet but another small star or large incandescent object perhaps falling into the star.



The apparent diameter doesn't say much about the size. Even a perfect laser would create an airy disk on the telescope sensors, if I understand correctly.

Edited by Annom (04/14/09 02:31 PM)

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Annom]
    #10164674 - 04/14/09 02:54 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Annom, you are refreshingly scientific. Stop to think for a moment how much diffraction, distortion and so on is in our atmosphere. We know there is lots of dust in the air. How big is a grain of pollen or other dust 20 feet from the telescope compared with the so called planet? Or compared with the star? The dust particle is much larger than the putative planet.

If the star looks that ridiculous, how is it they were able to get a perfectly round ball shape near it? They got a glint of light and manufactured the image that you see. I'm not sure how much they doctored up the stars image. If there is anything there in the place where they show us a "planet", it's most likely another star, or some other object bright enough to show up. Another possibilty is that the star is actually a black hole with incandescent gas around it and the other bright object is a blob of matter heated white hot by the tidal forces of the BH. I'm not saying I have enough evidence to conclude what it is, I'm just saying there are many many other possibilities. If indeed there is anything there and not just dust in our atmosphere or something between us and it.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineCubie
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Stonehenge]
    #10164691 - 04/14/09 02:57 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

when i said i lost what respect i had for you i thought you were talking about the very first picture BTW.
So sorry for being a dick

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Stonehenge]
    #10164859 - 04/14/09 03:21 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Annom, you are refreshingly scientific. Stop to think for a moment how much diffraction, distortion and so on is in our atmosphere. We know there is lots of dust in the air. How big is a grain of pollen or other dust 20 feet from the telescope compared with the so called planet? Or compared with the star? The dust particle is much larger than the putative planet.

If the star looks that ridiculous, how is it they were able to get a perfectly round ball shape near it? They got a glint of light and manufactured the image that you see. I'm not sure how much they doctored up the stars image. If there is anything there in the place where they show us a "planet", it's most likely another star, or some other object bright enough to show up. Another possibilty is that the star is actually a black hole with incandescent gas around it and the other bright object is a blob of matter heated white hot by the tidal forces of the BH. I'm not saying I have enough evidence to conclude what it is, I'm just saying there are many many other possibilities. If indeed there is anything there and not just dust in our atmosphere or something between us and it.






My problem with this and all your other thoughts on the matter is that you've declared things to be so but not demonstrated them to be.  How do I know what you say is true?  I don't.


If you would demonstrate your premises it would be "refreshingly scientific".

Again, the paper is cited.  Read that and tell us what the problem is that makes the image "fake in any real sense" and why they "can't see planets" much less than that distance away even.


Its just "this is so" and "that is so" so "I conclude this" when your initial premises have not been supported at all.  Your guessing the problems they'd encounter and how they surmounted them rather than just reading the damn paper and telling us
a) what you object to
or
b) why you think they lied.


I guess there's c) which is the image is a mistake or fraud or something....
Quote:

I'm not saying I have enough evidence to conclude what it is





I thought you said they couldn't see planets even 20 light years away and that the picture was "fake in any real sense" because it was enhanced (at least enough so that we could see it given it wasn't in the visible spectrum)?

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Stonehenge]
    #10164865 - 04/14/09 03:22 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Stop to think for a moment how much diffraction, distortion and so on is in our atmosphere.

I will stop thinking about diffraction and other distortions when you start to think about them. You argue about the size of a star and planet based on the size of the dot on a telescope image, you really have to think about distortions before you do that.

We know there is lots of dust in the air. How big is a grain of pollen or other dust 20 feet from the telescope compared with the so called planet?

Are you arguing it may be some dust in the air?

If the star looks that ridiculous, how is it they were able to get a perfectly round ball shape near it?

The supposed planet would probably create the same pattern as the star when more light is gathered. The star is much brighter and is completely white in the centre, around the real position of the star. You can't see the contrast between the star and the planet from this image because the centre is completely white on your screen. If brightness would be decreases so that the centre of the star would show contrast, you would not see the planet and strong distortion around the star.

I can't find an independent or second observation of this object, but I see no reason to think it's fake. This thing is thought to fly at 330 AU (Earth-Sun distance) of the star in the image btw, not as close to its star as mercury to the Sun.

Edited by Annom (04/14/09 03:27 PM)

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Annom]
    #10164883 - 04/14/09 03:25 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

All I'm saying is that this isn't some mystery- they published their methods.


If someone is asserting that planets much less than that distance away are imposible to see and that the image is "fake in any real sense" they shoul, you know, read the method of production and object to what they have a problem with.


Its just an appeal to incredulity, with no supported premises, which I find weak in comparison to a paper that has been accepted for publication in what I presume to be a serious journal on the subject.



If the authors are lieing then tell us how you know.  If your going to call a professional paper a fraud I think you should at least give them the courtesy of saying how you know.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Annom]
    #10165129 - 04/14/09 04:02 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

How many light years away is this one supposed to be?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Stonehenge]
    #10165245 - 04/14/09 04:21 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Ahh yes, I see you've not read the paper you are calling a fraud.


How nice.



Maybe you should, you know, read the paper before you say its a fraud?  You might even figure out how they made those "fake" pictures.


Its more than 20 light years from us..

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Stonehenge]
    #10165264 - 04/14/09 04:23 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

500 light years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1RXS_J160929.1-210524
About the size of the Sun.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Annom]
    #10165824 - 04/14/09 05:45 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

500 light years?!!! And they are trying to tell you that they got an image from 500 light years away on an earth based system? And it resolved a sun and it's planet? And some people actually believed it?

There is nothing I can say to the ones who want to believe this.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Stonehenge]
    #10165900 - 04/14/09 05:55 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Haha, I thought you were just trolling for awhile.

But you're serious.

:lol: @ vast frauds perpetrated by astronomers for nebulous (!) reasons.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineCubie
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10165904 - 04/14/09 05:56 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Haha, I thought you were just trolling for awhile.

But you're serious.

:lol: @ vast frauds perpetrated by astronomers for nebulous (!) reasons.



:rofl2:

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Stonehenge]
    #10165990 - 04/14/09 06:07 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

> There is nothing I can say to the ones who want to believe this.

Sure there is.  Rather than telling us your "gut feeling" about it, you can cite the paper and tell us how their procedures are flawed and illustrate their mistakes.  It helps to have well accepted references to back up your claims that show their work is fraudulent.  Science is not about belief; belief is for religion.  Science is about peer review and the scientific method.  If you want people to take you seriously in a scientific debate, then you need to play by the rules of science rather than courting the mysteries of faith.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Seuss]
    #10166194 - 04/14/09 06:32 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Lets let the article speak for itself then

"If we confirm that this object is indeed gravitationally tied to the star, it will be a major step forward."

So instead of seeing a planet revolving around a star, we have an enhanced image of two objects. Everything in the article is estimated this and estimated that. If you find that convincing then you just want to believe.

And how do they know how far away these objects are? Doesn't say. The usual method is to estimate it based on red shift which we discussed before. Just because two objects have a similar red shift does not mean they are right next to each other as the article tries to tell us. It's all conjecture and they admit they are not sure of a lot of things such as the fact it's a planet or companion of the star in question.

I say it's an artifact of any of a number of things. It's about as real as that artist's drawing in the first post. I can't prove that's what it is just as they can't prove it's what they want it to be. The true believers will believe what they wish. This is just another media article trying to hype something. It's like the latest cure for cancer than never works out.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineYour Destination
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Viveka]
    #10167185 - 04/14/09 08:44 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Danger smanger, if you can get me there in 20 years I volunteer.


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OfflineCubie
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Stonehenge]
    #10167198 - 04/14/09 08:46 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

im sorry

Edited by Cubie (04/14/09 09:04 PM)

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Offlineflangenips
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: Cubie]
    #10167264 - 04/14/09 08:54 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Cubie said:





:niggawhat:


--------------------
All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce

Edited by flangenips (04/14/09 10:07 PM)

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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Second Earth' found, 20 light years away [Re: flangenips]
    #10169147 - 04/15/09 01:32 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

i say we start shipping prisoner's to potential earths if they have a long sentence.  might as well make there lives useful, better than them just sitting in prison.


--------------------
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We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

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