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OfflineParesthesia
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10160112 - 04/13/09 06:57 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Boletes are ectomycorrhizae, which means they tend to associate with woody plants.  Most annuals associate with endomycorrhizae, none of which are good to eat as far as I know.  It would be freaking awesome if I could grow bok choy and matsutake together, but it just isn't gonna happen. :smile:


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"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

- T. S. Eliot


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Invisibleindian hemp
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: Paresthesia]
    #10160446 - 04/13/09 07:55 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I read in one of Paul Stamets books that mushrooms don't do well if you plant them too deep because the mold has the advantage when you go past a certain depth(6 inches?) so that's why I suggested having the mushrooms at the upper layer and RTI is reforest technologies international, their mycorrhizae has done great things with pumpkins and other food crops.

http://www.reforest.com/

Trichoderma, oysters and the RTI mycorrhizae shouldn't compete with each other since a lot of companies sell mixes of different beneficial fungi to inoculate root zones with.

Oysters will still be beneficial when planted deeper because even if the mycelium dies it'll still provide very bio available nutrients.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10161021 - 04/13/09 09:33 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

so RR (or others), from a clone, do you think that it is possible that the genetics of the clone could prevent(or facilitate) it's expression of a symbiotic relationship with the plant?


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
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InvisibleRoger Fudd
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: indian hemp]
    #10161082 - 04/13/09 09:43 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Paresthesia said:
Boletes are ectomycorrhizae, which means they tend to associate with woody plants.  Most annuals associate with endomycorrhizae, none of which are good to eat as far as I know.  It would be freaking awesome if I could grow bok choy and matsutake together, but it just isn't gonna happen. :smile:



I thought that ectomycorrhizae meant the mycelium lived outside the root, and endomycorrhizae live inside the root. Aren't morels endomycorrhizae, and good to eat? :grin:

Quote:

indian hemp said:
I read in one of Paul Stamets books that mushrooms don't do well if you plant them too deep because the mold has the advantage when you go past a certain depth(6 inches?) so that's why I suggested having the mushrooms at the upper layer and RTI is reforest technologies international, their mycorrhizae has done great things with pumpkins and other food crops.

http://www.reforest.com/

Trichoderma, oysters and the RTI mycorrhizae shouldn't compete with each other since a lot of companies sell mixes of different beneficial fungi to inoculate root zones with.

Oysters will still be beneficial when planted deeper because even if the mycelium dies it'll still provide very bio available nutrients.




Thanks for the information. I'll inoculat the plants in shallow trays, so they'll be "infected" with the fungi, and carry it to their larger pots after transplanting. Got my h. ulmarius culture, so I'm good to go. I'll also bury spent substrate for the nutrients. How about soaking seeds in peroxide, then mixing them into spent substrate for germination?  :strokebeard:


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OfflineParesthesia
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10162903 - 04/14/09 08:21 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Endo... morels?  I don't know!

Endomycorrhizae will burrow into the walls of root cells but do not actually penetrate the cytoplasm.  There the exchange occurs.  The vast majority of plants (70%) associate with endomycorrhizae, including grasses and annual plants, some trees and palms, etc.

Ectomycorrhizae typically associate with woody plants like trees, shrubs and roses.  These tend to be very specific in their host plants, depending on the region they're found in.  These form a sort of sheath around the roots, and the hyphae burrow in between cell walls.

According to Stamets, mycorrhizal species can actually be propagated by placing stem butts against the roots of suitable host plants.  I'm planning an experiment with this once the chanterelles come up, or I can find specimens of a suitably tasty bolete.  I'd like to see if including a stem butt from one of these species in an air layering pot will help with root formation and produce an inoculated host.


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"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

- T. S. Eliot


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OfflineMycelio
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: Paresthesia]
    #10163067 - 04/14/09 09:14 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, though endomycorrhizal hyphae actually grow into the root cells and into the cytoplasm.

The mushroom tissue on the roots method should be best with young seedlings, which did not form any symbiosis already.

In lack of fresh tissue of the desired mushrooms, I grind up dried specimens and put some powder on the pots before watering, hoping the spores germinate close to growing root tips.

Regarding morels... most trees mentioned are ectomycorrhizal, except apple trees.

Carsten


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Offlinesheikofshiitake
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations *DELETED* [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10163236 - 04/14/09 10:15 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by sheikofshiitake

Reason for deletion: .



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Invisibleindian hemp
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: sheikofshiitake]
    #10166429 - 04/14/09 07:00 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

A peroxide soak is fine but don't leave them in too long, because the peroxide can damage some plants roots. I think the oyster would take over even if there is no peroxide treatment since it's already a mycelium and doesn't have to germinate. It's a good idea to have wood chips on the soil surface for the oysters to grow into so they can rain down nutrients into the soil and attach to the upper part of the roots easier. If you water it regularly or keep a good amount of mulch on top of the wood chips it should be fine. You probably don't live in a desert like I do so I don't think it would be a problem.

Humic and fulvic acids from worm shit chelate nutrients and make them available to plants so worm shit is a good idea. Worm shit also adds structure to the soil, preventing nutrients from slipping away and holding moisture much better than most soil that lacks worm shit.

Adding manure to soil tends to prevent humic acid formation and so it makes it more difficult for plants to get nutrients from it. I think Roger Rabbit said a plant would die if it was planted just in manure but I'm not so sure it would die because plants excrete acid from the root tips in order to chelate nutrients when there's no natural chelating agents available. I'm sure some plants would die if planted in nothing but manure but others would survive, they just wouldn't thrive.

I think manure should just be used as a worm and mushroom food. I'm going to plant some plants in plain manure to see what happens. Plants native to areas where there's just sand should do better since they've got better acid secretion than plants from areas where there's rich soil with lots of organic matter in it.

If you mix manure in, you should wait till your oyster mycelium is established in symbiosis with the plant and then add red worms to the soil so they can turn the animal manure into worm shit. This is if you don't already have a lot of worms in the soil of course.

It's best to avoid synthetic chelating agents because they leak into ground water and leach heavy metals and other toxic substances into the ground water. They also don't hold a soil structure the way natural worm shit does, so they're not nearly as effective.


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InvisibleRoger Fudd
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: indian hemp]
    #10166749 - 04/14/09 07:44 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Ok, thanks. I'll use all of that advice. I think I'll add some compost to the top too. They are pretty pasteurized out of the bag, since it is a horse stable that carrys them, and with clear plastic bags in the hot summer sun, it really cooks em. I am in a desert by the way :lol:


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InvisibleJef
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10167711 - 04/14/09 09:42 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

When you're talking about mycorrhizal oysters, I hope you mean Hypzizygus.  Pleurotus is known for impairing the growth of companion plants, according to Stamets.


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Invisibleindian hemp
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: Jef]
    #10167912 - 04/14/09 10:12 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I have only seen positive effects from oysters in my plants :shrug:

and I mean pleurotus.


Edited by indian hemp (04/14/09 10:16 PM)


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InvisibleJef
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: indian hemp]
    #10167997 - 04/14/09 10:23 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Well, I guess even a god can be wrong then.:)


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Invisibleindian hemp
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: indian hemp]
    #10168037 - 04/14/09 10:29 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I have a few of his books. Where does he say that it impairs plant growth?


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Invisibleindian hemp
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: indian hemp]
    #10168250 - 04/14/09 10:58 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Nevermind, in page 194 of mycelium running he mentions that pleurotus ostreatus had a diminishing effect on plant growth.


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InvisibleJef
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: indian hemp]
    #10168290 - 04/14/09 11:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Mycelium Running pg 194

"The most remarkable results occurred in connection with the matching of the elm oyster with Brussel sprouts and broccoli.  In total weight the beds with the elm oyster yielded 4 to 6 times as much vegetables as  those without.  In contrast oysters, (Pleurotus ostreatus) had a diminishing effect on plant growth and yield, although nearly a kilogram of fresh oyster mushrooms were harvested."

Your growing conditions may be way different from his.  My guess would be that pleurotus may directly compete with plants for nitrogen, or kill off beneficial microbes as a nitrogen source, to the detriment of the plant.  Elms I believe to be mycorrhyzal, but not true oyster mushrooms.

Just my guess.


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Edited by Jef (04/14/09 11:03 PM)


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Invisibleindian hemp
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: Jef]
    #10168428 - 04/14/09 11:18 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I used pulmonarius but it should be the same as ostreatus. I'll have to do some more tests with it. It kind of makes sense though because you can make herbicides with hot water extracts of pleurotus ostreatus mycelium, if I remember correctly.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: indian hemp]
    #10168670 - 04/14/09 11:52 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

indian hemp said:
I think Roger Rabbit said a plant would die if it was planted just in manure but I'm not so sure it would die because plants excrete acid from the root tips in order to chelate nutrients when there's no natural chelating agents available.




I believe you misread.  I said if you put a plant in sterilized soil with sterilized manure, it would starve.  The manure is useless to plants without bacteria and/or fungi to break it down.
RR


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Invisibleindian hemp
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10168784 - 04/15/09 12:10 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I didn't know where you posted it, else I would've double checked. I will try the sterilized manure and soil though. But it seems like the bacteria and fungi would find their way in through the air eventually.


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OfflineParesthesia
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: indian hemp]
    #10169514 - 04/15/09 05:06 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Brassicas (Cabbage, Broccoli, Brussels Sprouts, Kale, Cauliflower, etc.) do not generally form mycorrhizal partnerships.  Stamets' boosted yeilds are most likely due to the elm oysters making soil nutrients available to the plants.


--------------------
"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

- T. S. Eliot


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InvisibleJaComet
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Re: Mycorrhizal associations [Re: Paresthesia]
    #10169611 - 04/15/09 06:10 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I found that Boletus tissue takes off on cardboard. By culturing some tissue and taking samples of related soil for inoculation, I am hoping to move same from my picking area and introduce to similar  environments closer to home.


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