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Invisibletekramrepus
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Registered: 02/20/02
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Topic: Buddhism and Intoxicants
    #1014566 - 11/02/02 12:25 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Earlier I mentioned I was thinking of possibly taking the zen buddhist path in life. I have the option to do so , and was reading a bit on it. I found information though, which I need opinion and clarity on.


What is your take on the specific law in the eightfold path regarding intoxicants.

One is, I believe not to intoxicant yourself. Another, is not to make a living by selling intoxicants.

My opinion is this. Marijauna and alcohol are both intoxicants. They distort the senses, and are harmful on the body (we aren't talking about vaporizing or eating marijauna, for arguments sake).

But where is the line drawn? What about a pharmicist? A pharmicist that is a little generous in his prescriptions?

How about a marijauna grower and/or supplier.

Does this relate to psychedelics? They can be used to expand the mind, but are intoxicants nonetheless, correct?


Or is there wisdom in realizing the difference between true intoxicants, and mind-altering substances.


Discuss!



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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: Topic: Buddhism and Intoxicants [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1014758 - 11/02/02 02:20 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

There's quite a few buddhist monks who recomend entheogens.They're usually in the soto tradition.

There's an interesting book on Buddhism and entheogens called Zig zag zen.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineGrowingVines
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Re: Topic: Buddhism and Intoxicants [Re: Xlea321]
    #1014787 - 11/02/02 02:44 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

i am interested in Same idea and consept. All ideas would be helpfull


--------------------
Peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them


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Anonymous

Re: Topic: Buddhism and Intoxicants [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1014840 - 11/02/02 03:07 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Keep in mind nothing is black and white.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Topic: Buddhism and Intoxicants [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1015242 - 11/02/02 09:25 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

issue 21/fall '96
www.tricycle.com
buddhist magazine tricycle had an entire issue focused on buddhism & psychedelics... some interesting stuff there...
~
hmmmm... well, it has been stated that there are more people who move from being trippers to meditators then there are whomove from being meditators to trippers...
of course there are some who manage to do both... the two are not absolutely antithetical...
some have likened the psychedelic state to "kensho" - a glimpse of the enlightened state...
i think huxley talked about psychedelics being analogous to the christian concept of "gratuitous grace" --- being neither neccessary nor sufficient for salvation, but (for some), a possible reminder of one's destination, and perhaps even a goad to keep one on the path... but...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Invisiblexganon
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Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: Topic: Buddhism and Intoxicants [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1015715 - 11/02/02 01:46 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)


> Earlier I mentioned I was thinking of possibly taking the zen buddhist path
> in life. I have the option to do so , and was reading a bit on it. I found
> information though, which I need opinion and clarity on.

> What is your take on the specific law in the eightfold path regarding
> intoxicants.

Isn't Zen supposed to be universal? A universal path, not a single book or church? Who wrote the eightfold path? What "intoxicants" were available where they lived? Remember that this is likely a translation. It may have simply meant "No excessive alcohol" or something like that. I consider sobriety to be a potent intoxicant, with all of live being spent in one impaired state or another.


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Please remove all dollar signs from my listed contact information


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OfflineTheLord
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Re: Topic: Buddhism and Intoxicants [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1015994 - 11/02/02 04:13 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The purpose of the bhuddist spiritual path is to achieve enlightment. Psychedelics can show you enlightment, but you always eventually come down so you cannot achieve enlightment through them alone. They merely give you a glimpse of it that can either help you see beyond your ego or hurt you if you become to obsessed with the high. Bhuddist masters have been given large amounts of LSD and suffered no effects what so ever, why? because they are always tripping, because they have achieved enlightenment. Read 'Be Here Now' by Ram Dass to better understand bhuddists and there outlooks on psychedelics.


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OfflineCleverName
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Registered: 08/26/02
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Re: Topic: Buddhism and Intoxicants [Re: TheLord]
    #1016012 - 11/02/02 04:26 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

"The purpose of the bhuddist spiritual path is to achieve enlightment."
nobody achieves anything ever

be here now was a feeble attempt of a white druggy not cutting it as a monk, coming back to the states and writing a book to make money.


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineCleverName
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Registered: 08/26/02
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Re: Topic: Buddhism and Intoxicants [Re: CleverName]
    #1016023 - 11/02/02 04:31 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

"be here now was a feeble attempt of a white druggy not cutting it as a monk, coming back to the states and writing a book to make money."

i shouldnt judge, im sorry


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineTheLord
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Re: Topic: Buddhism and Intoxicants [Re: CleverName]
    #1016136 - 11/02/02 05:35 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

There is some truth to your judgement, but none the less the book gives incite into the nature of bhuddist and psychedelics as the author did go to actual bhuddists and talk to them about psychedelics. Whether you think the author was just a druggie or not doesn't really matter. The fact that he was a westerner trying to understand a total different world view was probably the reason he failed as a monk. In the west we'd rather just take LSD and become enlightened than follow the bhuddist long and hard parth to enlightenment.


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Registered: 02/20/02
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Re: Topic: Buddhism and Intoxicants [Re: TheLord]
    #1016374 - 11/02/02 07:14 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I think a few of you guys are trying to lie to yourselves.

No, wether translation or not, the eightfold path specificaly shuns taking or selling intoxicants.

I was just curious as to what drugs are "intoxicants" and what the rules are. I think it comes with wiscom realizing what goes against buddhism and what even helps it, regarding drugs.


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Topic: Buddhism and Intoxicants [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1016611 - 11/02/02 09:38 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

To me, mushrooms are the most divine intoxicant. From what I have experienced.

I think you may be the one trying to decieve yourself, my friend. I say this with respect.

in?tox?i?ca?tion Pronunciation Key (n-tks-kshn)
n.
Stupefaction or excitement by the action of a chemical substance.
Exhilaration, excitement, or euphoria.
Poisoning by a drug or toxic substance.

The way i see it, anything which we use to manipulate or enhance our sensory perception is an intoxicant. This implies a wide range of things from music and art to recreational activities to the hardest of drugs. I think the purpose for the no intoxicant rule in certain sects of Buddhist tradition is based on the teaching that the 5 senses are the gateway to desire. One of the conditions of the path to enlightenment is that one remains free of desire. This condition is practically impossible to maintain in a western society.
And, yes, this leads to the question about the desire for enlightenment. According to the scripture, once you desire and yearn for enlightenment you cannot achieve it. Perhaps it is just sort of a zen momentum which carries one there. And it clicks at some point, the moment of death perhaps. But as i am writing this i am bound and gagged by ignorance. I don't think enlightenment is something to be grasped at. It is like trying to analyze an infinite universe. But now i', getting off topic.

Yes, mushrooms and lsd and dmt are definately intoxicants.

"Your arms would not be able to stretch as far as necessary
to form an adequate gesture for beauty
(you know that don't you?)
So, [ ] beauty remains in the impossibilities of the body."
-einsturzende neubauten, beauty


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: Topic: Buddhism and Intoxicants [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1016777 - 11/02/02 10:38 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

the actual wording of the vow (one of the "five precepts" for normal people or eight precepts for monks, ie not one part of the eightfold path) is "I shall not partake of fermented drinks". which is interesting since i think ganja was just as prevalent 2500 years ago as it is now.

the eightfold path (as explained by the buddha himself) says nothing specific about using intoxicants. the step of "skillful action" refers to only performing actions which are skillful, or right, or useful, and consciously disgarding any actions which are not skillful or useful and therefore not-right. at different stages of developement certain actions can be useful, while later on they may no longer be useful and (earthquake!! woohoo it's been a while) should therefore be disgarded.

mushrooms and ganja are perfect examples.

also realise that although this has become dogma, the eightfold path is not a set of laws to be enforced by anyone else, or to be believed because you are told to. it is up to you to discover through your own experiences what constitutes skillful thought, speech, action, livelihood...at whatever stage in life you are at. the only way to understand the effects of your own thoughts, speech, actions, etc is mindfulness - paying attention.


Edited by Traveller (11/02/02 10:42 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Topic: Buddhism and Intoxicants [Re: TheLord]
    #1017229 - 11/03/02 01:53 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Read 'Be Here Now' by Ram Dass to better understand bhuddists and there outlooks on psychedelics.

I thought that was about Hindu guru's? The guy who Ram gave the LSD to was an indian not a buddhist.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Topic: Buddhism and Intoxicants [Re: Traveller]
    #1017376 - 11/03/02 02:32 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

also realise that although this has become dogma, the eightfold path is not a set of laws to be enforced by anyone else

Good post traveller. Like Bill Hicks said "All the people who created tradition, rules and countries, them fuckers are dead. Why don't you start your own world while you got the chance?"


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Topic: Buddhism and Intoxicants [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1018055 - 11/03/02 11:40 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I am not a Buddhist, but I have learned from Buddhism. A bronze Yab-Yum in my library has the male holding a medicine bowl. I glued a ruby [my birth 'stone'] into the bowl. As Huxley called them, psychedelics are "Moksha Medicine," and if inebriation occurs, it is the arousing and circulation of usually dormant energies, or the ecstasy of realization that has legitimate uses, since it offers a glimpse of the spiritual horizon.

Using psychedelics for mere fun and recreation is not going to teach anything because the users are not using to learn anything. This kind of 'dissipation' is discouraged by all faiths. Christians use wine ritually, and Jews are supposed to drink a whole glass of wine between prayers on Passover. This intoxication is condoned within the framework of rejoicing for the 'Exodus,' which may well be a metaphor for 'liberation' in the spiritual sense. But Jews do not have a high incidence of alcoholism, by and large.

Instead of finding comfort in rules and regs, it behooves people to understand the point behind them. This is not to rationalize them away, but to understand and employ wisdom - 'Binah' and 'Chokma' - in the Hebrew Kabbalistic meaning. Buddhist, Christian or other faith...drunken, stoned monks are not doing what monks are monks for, and narcissistic pleasure-principle governed people do not supress the urges in order to grow spiritually. Chronic stoners have merely replaced the infant's pacifier with a pipe, a joint or a bottle (still bottle-babies) - from a psychoanalytic point of view.

Last note: the late Lama Anagarika Govinda, a German born Tibetan Buddhist lama of the Kargyutpa lineage said that he never really experienced the truths of his faith, with all the arduous meditative practices - until he took LSD.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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