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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: zouden]
    #10121239 - 04/07/09 11:52 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
But it can be red-shifted into the radio spectrum.




According to Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment we can change what a photon did billions of years ago with an experiment here on earth today.

So, either a photon exists simultaneously in the past and the future, or a photon in the past knows about its own future.


Edited by Zanthius (04/07/09 12:00 PM)


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OfflineCubie
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Zanthius]
    #10121278 - 04/07/09 12:37 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

that just goes to show how little we really understand about light and time. I dont think that the past was changed atall. Just that the current theory of how photons travel and how we see "old" light is way off.


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Cubie]
    #10121294 - 04/07/09 12:50 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cubie said:
that just goes to show how little we really understand about light and time. I dont think that the past was changed atall. Just that the current theory of how photons travel and how we see "old" light is way off.




I think the past and the future exist simultaneously.

The Illusion of Time


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OfflineCubie
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Zanthius]
    #10121300 - 04/07/09 12:58 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

before i looked at that i was gonna say yea i agree kinda like falling through layers... but that is a much better way to explain it. lolz.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Zanthius]
    #10122833 - 04/07/09 08:52 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
So, either a photon exists simultaneously in the past and the future, or a photon in the past knows about its own future.





It cant exist in simultaneously in the past and future... thats saying it exists at the same time in different times - a nonsensical statement.  Nor does it know about its future, becuase quantum mechanical phenomenon are not deterministic.  You cannot predict its future state by its current state (nor can you extrapolate to its past state from its current state).


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10141414 - 04/10/09 06:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Qubit said:
It cant exist in simultaneously in the past and future... thats saying it exists at the same time in different times - a nonsensical statement.




Okay. How do you explain Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment then?


Edited by Zanthius (04/10/09 06:46 PM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/12/03
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Zanthius]
    #10141536 - 04/10/09 07:12 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The same way nearly all scientists explain all the weird happenings of quantum physics... with the copenhagen interpretation's probabilistic nature of the wave function.


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10142713 - 04/10/09 11:06 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Qubit said:
The same way nearly all scientists explain all the weird happenings of quantum physics... with the copenhagen interpretation's probabilistic nature of the wave function.




Do you agree that I can change what a photon did billions of years ago with Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment?


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/12/03
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Zanthius]
    #10142719 - 04/10/09 11:07 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

No, of course not.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Zanthius]
    #10142722 - 04/10/09 11:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

course not.  That's then, this is now.  qed


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10142730 - 04/10/09 11:10 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Qubit said:
No, of course not.




Did you read the page about Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment?


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Zanthius]
    #10142748 - 04/10/09 11:14 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I have learned of it before, its just a modified double slit experiment.  The resolution of the apparent paradox is that the photon's wave traveled on each of the star (just as it traveled though each slit).  Only upon observation does the wave function collapse to a value (ie, the copenhagen interpretation).


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10142798 - 04/10/09 11:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Qubit said:
I have learned of it before, its just a modified double slit experiment.  The resolution of the apparent paradox is that the photon's wave traveled on each of the star (just as it traveled though each slit).  Only upon observation does the wave function collapse to a value (ie, the copenhagen interpretation).





Well, let us say that the photon traveled in both directions for billions of years, and then suddenly when you collapse the wave-function, it only traveled one direction.

The problem is that the photon started to diverge into two directions billions of years ago, so shouldn't the choice for the photon to go "one direction" or the "other direction", be where the photon started to diverge billions of years ago?

It seems like the choice to go one direction or the other one is made billions of years after the photon started to diverge into two directions, when you collapse the wave-function.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/12/03
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Zanthius]
    #10142829 - 04/10/09 11:31 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Nope, the photon did not start to diverge billions of years ago.  Its wave is in a superposition between all possible states until you make an observation.  You then make the observation and collapse the wave function.  Only then does the photon's apparent path get resolved to one side or the other (and it is resolved in a probabilistic nature).

edit - ahhh, that last sentence you added is more right.  Buts its not a choice that it went one way or the other... its a choice that it has characteristics that we would interpret classically as it went one way or the other.  The actual wave function extends throughout the universe, and taking all possible paths that exist.  So you cant really say that it went one way or the other - it went both ways.


Edited by Qubit (04/10/09 11:37 PM)


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10142898 - 04/10/09 11:44 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Qubit said:
edit - ahhh, that last sentence you added is more right.  Buts its not a choice that it went one way or the other... its a choice that it has characteristics that we would interpret classically as it went one way or the other.  The actual wave function extends throughout the universe, and taking all possible paths that exist.  So you cant really say that it went one way or the other - it went both ways.




Well, the photon only went one direction after you collapsed the wave-function, but the wave-function split into two directions billions of years before you collapsed the wave-function.


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