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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #10135009 - 04/09/09 09:08 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Glucose is our brain's only fuel yes, but that really has no correlation to how our brains got big.

As for the meat, of course it is true.  It also took good cooperation to take down big game.  But you are wrong about no veggie sharing.  The women harvested for everyone to eat while the men hunted.  And once a big kill was had, everyone ate meat for a while.  Sure in the bush nobody was sharing the greens they were eating, but the women still gathered lots of food for everyone along with the men hunting.  And it was this further cooperation which really advanced us more.

We wouldn't have gotten our civilization w/o grains though, so it all has its role.





You are referring to civilized humans here. The OP referred to the origins of cooperation via our primate ancestors.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: Icelander]
    #10135272 - 04/09/09 10:07 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I was talking more about the progression.

We started as primates working together to get big game.  We excelled at this and because excellent hunters and gather's over hundreds of thousands of years.

But we reached a certain point where our cooperation became even more specialized.  We had farming, and the start of civilizations.

I was just musing over the many different types of food and practices relating them that have brought us through both the evolutionary and civilization time lines.

We could have never gotten here w/o being hunter, and we could have also never gotten here w/o becoming farmer's as well.


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"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #10135289 - 04/09/09 10:12 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah bummer about the farmer thing. But now we are here and there's not much to be done except bomb ourselves back to hunter gatherers again.:satansmoking:

http://www.environnement.ens.fr/perso/claessen/agriculture/mistake_jared_diamond.pdf


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: Icelander]
    #10135346 - 04/09/09 10:26 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I agree completely Icelander.  For all we have gained in our civilized society, it is a corrupt, hateful, patriarchal world controlled by greedy men.

We have lost our egalitarianism, and I feel that has been the biggest downfall of our society.

ARCHAIC REVIVAL!


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #10135364 - 04/09/09 10:29 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

With our advanced "civilization" I'm thinking human's cause more violence, starvation, and destruction then at any time in our hunter gatherer history. Those were most likely the "good ol days" that some refer to.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #10136225 - 04/09/09 12:58 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Suggesting that our current state depends on meat is one thing, but appealing to its role in our evolutionary past seems like a poor appeal to nature/tradition.



You seem to be under the confused impression that I was trying to justify something.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: Silversoul]
    #10136314 - 04/09/09 01:14 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I see now, sorry, that was an inadvertent straw-man. I must have breezed through this thread a little too quickly before I made my responses.

It seems like a pretty decent hypothesis in my mind, but what does it mean to us, why are we talking about it?


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #10136839 - 04/09/09 02:31 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

To what extent does science back claims for this moment, as to be considered truly relevant? Do we need meat to think and generally grow as a civilization, or is this something that could be conveniently left behind?

I hope you realize that my OP had nothing to do with a defense of meat eating but rather the acknowledgement of our relation to the web of life as fellow animals involved in an evolutionary process. Sharing meat was just a convenient example.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: Icelander]
    #10136979 - 04/09/09 03:00 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yea, I was in my own world last night. There are no names to that argument yet, so you can call me Mr Strawman today. I have heard the argument many times though, that's why I was a little too quick to jump. So if it does come up, well there ya go!

It is a very interesting hypothesis, and I am still curious as to the implications. I am mostly convinced that hierarchical relations, "ratiocination" as Hobbes refers to it, or that generally subjugation is the initial spark of human understanding. It seems appropriate that our ideals should reflect a bare physical relationship (physic--->metaphysic).

And certainly this method of understanding is both convenient and useful. What I wonder though, is if it is necessary, or can this physical bias can be left behind; that in our metaphysic we might possibly bootstrap an intrinsic creativity and expressiveness.

Why not? Take the internet for example; why should institutions monopolize the scholarly journals, the music, and the general information, when there is no longer any physical burden to it? We are at a point where the capitalistic bias is aggravating to knowledge itself, and what I might offer in opposition, is a library philosophy, freeflow of information/knowledge, because knowledge is power.

Is the class struggle innate to our condition, or can we truly create something with our ideals? We tame and enslave the body as well as the physical world (Subject--->Object), and the natural and convenient consequence of this is to tame the other (self-->other). But once the jump from subject to selfhood is recognized, is it possible to truly see and respect the assumed subject within others?


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #10137010 - 04/09/09 03:06 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Well you're posts are a little difficult for the undereducated such as myself but I will say that if we are to create something more in line with our ideals it will be because we are not afraid of who and what we really are. IMO most really scary violence is perpetrated by those who have convinced themselves that it is not they but the other who is the violent monster. This mostly plays out on levels below full  conscious awareness unless you have the courage to take a look at all the information available.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: Icelander]
    #10137500 - 04/09/09 04:25 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I have two disobediant dogs. Jazz barks in the house, and Sammy barks outside. The one that barks outside, Sammy, is clearly the dominant one in a certain sense. She is much more toned, faster, and quicker to react, so she gets to things first. Jazz isn't necessarily slow, but in comparison to Sam her doggy mentality has begun to exaggerate this with a certain kind of affectative laziness. If she were human it might be "patience" as opposed to Sammy's high-strungendess. Really though, when they wrestle, its even and I wouldn't say either is dominant in an over-powering sense. (jazz has some weight on her to make up.)

Significantly, the problem I am having with them is in relation to human attention. Jazz barks at us in the house, the contained, to get us to play, whereas Sammy is never a problem in this way. Sammy barks at strangers passing on the road, and fails to obey any call, while Jazz will come to our attention. I am suspecting that the "problem" is a human projection, even though the difference clearly manifests to their basic animal to animal relations, (such that they act so differently.) This tends to blur the line between what can and cannot be helped. Never had much problems with a single dog, but Sammy and Jazz are pretty hard to contain at times.

Clearly though, words couldn't do much justice to describe the situation, and the theory after all, is another projection of my own. I am not really saying anything, but that it is a relavent interest of mine.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (04/09/09 04:32 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #10137565 - 04/09/09 04:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Well they clearly don't think of you as the alpha male. Most likely they think you and they need protecting and if they don't do it it won't get done.

Basic obediance training (mostly for you) will change this very common situation.

First read (if interested) "Be The Pack Leader by Cesar Millan, Then PM me if you want on specific techniques for training. But watch out, the bond with your dogs will be 100% better in all ways.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: Icelander]
    #10137627 - 04/09/09 04:42 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks Ill check into that, hopefully I can find a copy. Im fasting for my spring break, and will have nothing other to do than read. We'll see what happens.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: Icelander]
    #10137653 - 04/09/09 04:45 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

First read (if interested) "Be The Pack Leader by Cesar Millan, Then PM me if you want on specific techniques for training




Then listen to 'Leader of the Pack' by the Shangri-Las.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: Icelander]
    #10139378 - 04/09/09 09:20 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

" It is unlikely that vegetable matter played any role in the evolution of food sharing. The leaves and fruits that primates collect in the forest are too abundant and too small to share. Sharing makes sense only in relation to highly prized food that is hard to obtain and comes in amounts too large for a single individual. If a taste for meat is indeed at the root of sharing, it is hard to escape the conclusion that human morality is steeped in blood."-Our Inner Ape

I don't buy that at all.
Primates collecting leaves and fruits are moving in groups.
The individuals in the group are/share knowledge of what leaves and fruits
to eat. If you define sharing in the very limited sense of one individual
handing something to eat to another individual, eh, maybe.
This argument for meat as the root of sharing is very weak though,
as it limits the meaning of sharing.

comes in amounts too large for a single individual

Meat can also be had in amounts too small and just right for a
single individual. I suspect the author doesn't have a clue and
is just making things up.

Edited by falcon (04/09/09 09:41 PM)

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: falcon]
    #10139425 - 04/09/09 09:28 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

yeah that's a good point, especially if you look at the role of shamans in seemingly most aboriginal groups... plant knowledge seems to be highly treasured - but I guess that's going beyond just sustenance into healing as well


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: deff]
    #10139495 - 04/09/09 09:38 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

that's going beyond just sustenance into healing
:shrug: Sustenance is usually necessary for healing.

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: falcon]
    #10139501 - 04/09/09 09:39 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

haha true

but herbalism in the shamanic sense was beyond just calorie maintenance, which this meat vs vegetable thread seemed to be dealing with


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Share the meat. [Re: deff]
    #10139533 - 04/09/09 09:46 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Ha, yep.

but herbalism in the shamanic sense was beyond just calorie maintenance

Had to think about this awhile, because I'm not sure just what herbalism is in the shamanic sense. I just guessing, but I think
it would also include a good bit of calorie maintenance. Seems
that way to me, most of the people I've met who study plants
have knowledge of both the food and medicinal uses of plants.

Edited by falcon (04/09/09 10:06 PM)

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