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Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
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Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: DieCommie]
    #10159450 - 04/13/09 04:48 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

But it's a claim that makes no difference. You can't derive anything from it. A non-personal God who created the universe, but nothing inside the universe, cannot have any other features ascribed to it. There'd be no point giving it a name, worshipping it, or getting other people to worship it.


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: zouden]
    #10159473 - 04/13/09 04:53 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

There'd be no point giving it a name, worshipping it, or getting other people to worship it.




What about money, sex and control?


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: zouden]
    #10159483 - 04/13/09 04:54 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

We dont study the nature of the universe or multiverse looking for intelligence or design of any form to find something to worship.  We do it because we are curious.  Worship is irrelevant here, unless this is a discussion on religion.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: DieCommie]
    #10160363 - 04/13/09 07:40 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

We do it because we hate when a giant green hand grabs our starships! :mad2:


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OfflineSventington
am what I am what I am what I am

Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 532
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10160969 - 04/13/09 09:23 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Nick Cave is God. End of discusion.

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Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
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Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: DieCommie]
    #10161905 - 04/14/09 12:38 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Qubit said:
We dont study the nature of the universe or multiverse looking for intelligence or design of any form to find something to worship.  We do it because we are curious.  Worship is irrelevant here, unless this is a discussion on religion.




The title of the thread certainly made me think it was :shrug:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleZanthius
Mean Alien
Male

Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,570
Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: zouden]
    #10162281 - 04/14/09 03:23 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
But it's a claim that makes no difference. You can't derive anything from it. A non-personal God who created the universe, but nothing inside the universe, cannot have any other features ascribed to it. There'd be no point giving it a name, worshipping it, or getting other people to worship it.




I don't know about worshiping, but I think teleology is at least as important as technology. Technology can make our lives more comfortable, but teleology can give our lives more meaning.

I think our society is too focused upon technology, and too little focused upon teleology. Doesn't really matter how much technology you have, if your life doesn't have any meaning.

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Offlinezouden
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Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Zanthius]
    #10162347 - 04/14/09 03:47 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Fair enough, but an impersonal God who doesn't interact with the universe can't provide much in the way of purpose, can it?

And in anycase, any purpose we ascribe to the universe can only have come from us. We can't really know what God's purpose is (if any), so religions just make it up as we go along.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleZanthius
Mean Alien
Male

Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,570
Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: zouden]
    #10162371 - 04/14/09 03:57 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
And in anycase, any purpose we ascribe to the universe can only have come from us. We can't really know what God's purpose is (if any), so religions just make it up as we go along.




Perhaps, but we could have a topic called "teleology" in school, where students learn that they shouldn't pollute their environment, they shouldn't eat unhealthy food, and they should work for the betterment of mankind.

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Icelander]
    #10163073 - 04/14/09 09:16 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
would not exist at all were its existence not caused.

How is this proof of God? Does cause imply God?






The argument taken in toto gives evidence for the existence of God.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Icelander]
    #10163100 - 04/14/09 09:25 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
And the Flying Spaghetti Monster God is real too. :thumbup:




And so is the rebuttal.

Quote:

The logical rebuttal to FSM is simple. FSM fans want to cast ID as an arbitrary explanation that has no logical force behind it, i.e. they argue that invoking ID is no better than invoking something as silly as the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The problem for their logic is that ID is not an arbitrary explanation, because we have much experience with intelligent agents producing the type of informational complexity we see in nature. Stephen C. Meyer, who holds a Ph.D. in Philosophy of Science from Cambridge, explains this point clearly:

    [W]e have repeated experience of rational and conscious agents-in particular ourselves-generating or causing increases in complex specified information, both in the form of sequence-specific lines of code and in the form of hierarchically arranged systems of parts. … Our experience-based knowledge of information-flow confirms that systems with large amounts of specified complexity (especially codes and languages) invariably originate from an intelligent source from a mind or personal agent.

    (Stephen C. Meyer, "The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories," Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, Vol. 117(2):213-239 (2004).)

Elsewhere, Meyer and microbiologist Scott Minnich explain that invoking intelligent causes is not arbitrary because "[i ]n all irreducibly complex systems in which the cause of the system is known by experience or observation, intelligent design or engineering played a role the origin of the system," and therefore, "[a]lthough some may argue [ID] is a merely an argument from ignorance, we regard it as an inference to the best explanation, given what we know about the powers of intelligent as opposed to strictly natural or material causes."

To invoke the Flying Spaghetti Monster is to invoke an arbitrary, silly, and unscientific cause. But in science, to invoke intelligent causation is not to invoke an arbitrary explanation. We have observation-based experience with intelligent agents which shows that they are the only known causes of high levels of specified complexity — the very type of specified complexity we find in natural structures. Using uniformitarian reasoning, a common form of scientific reasoning which invokes causes that we observe in nature that are sufficient to account for the observed data, we can use our observations about the power of intelligent agents to infer the prior action of intelligent causes. There’s nothing arbitrary about it.




Full article: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/08/the_proper_rebuttal_to_the_fly.html


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: zouden]
    #10163122 - 04/14/09 09:31 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Oh, really? Have you been arguing that position all along? In that case, then there's absolutely no way you can say either way. The deist/pantheist, non-personal God of Spinoza kind of thing is fine with me. I say, "he may as well be real" since it makes no difference :smile:

I don't have a problem with people saying that there's a non-personal God who created the universe. I do have a problem with people saying that Jehovah created all the plants and animals and if we don't worship him we'll go to hell.




I understand this, but it is of relatively no concern to me.  I consider it equal when some Bible thumper comes in here railing about how everyone that doesn't follow "his" way is going to hell as much as atheists mocking others' religious beliefs for no apparent reason.  Both are an affront to civility, the decorum on which all rational discussion is built.

You and I may disagree on various points but I always enjoy our conversations immensely.  I can say the same about most regulars here.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10163124 - 04/14/09 09:32 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Gee I wasn't convinced. At all.

The idea of intelligent design seems based to me on the belief that we are some direct reflection of God.

But honestly it's not a question that can be answered and is of relatively no importance to how we live, if we are mentally or emotionally healthy  or anything of real value other than the fun of speculation or the fear of dying and being part of something that bears no resemblance to the human emotional landscape and in no way "cares" about us.

For me it's an unnecessary encumbrance and no more than a balm to my personal anxieties.


Edited by Icelander (04/14/09 09:40 AM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Zanthius]
    #10163281 - 04/14/09 10:33 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Quote:

zouden said:
And in anycase, any purpose we ascribe to the universe can only have come from us. We can't really know what God's purpose is (if any), so religions just make it up as we go along.




Perhaps, but we could have a topic called "teleology" in school, where students learn that they shouldn't pollute their environment, they shouldn't eat unhealthy food, and they should work for the betterment of mankind.




Sounds like the type of class I'd ditch to go smoke marijuana in the parking lot.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleZanthius
Mean Alien
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Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,570
Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: deCypher]
    #10163304 - 04/14/09 10:38 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Sounds like the type of class I'd ditch to go smoke marijuana in the parking lot.




I wonder how you got far enough to learn calculus if you did that at school. :tongue:

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Zanthius]
    #10163309 - 04/14/09 10:39 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I was homeschooled for the majority of my pre-college education; can't really ditch class if you live with your teachers.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleZanthius
Mean Alien
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Registered: 02/05/09
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: deCypher]
    #10163337 - 04/14/09 10:47 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I was homeschooled for the majority of my pre-college education; can't really ditch class if you live with your teachers.




Homeschooled? Are people still doing that in the united states? From a rich family then?

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Zanthius]
    #10163352 - 04/14/09 10:50 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

My family's middle-class, and there are plenty of active homeschooling communities all over the US.  Unfortunately most of these tend to be either Fundamentalist Christian or comprised mainly of unschoolers (which is different from traditional homeschooling in that all impetus and motivation is left up to the kids as opposed to parents setting up educational guidelines).

I personally feel as if the benefits of homeschooling far outweigh the benefits of attending public/private school, and I'll probably end up homeschooling my own kids if I ever have any.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleZanthius
Mean Alien
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Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,570
Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: deCypher]
    #10163392 - 04/14/09 11:00 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I personally feel as if the benefits of homeschooling far outweigh the benefits of attending public/private school, and I'll probably end up homeschooling my own kids if I ever have any.




In Norway homeschooling is illegal, but of course I would be able to give my own children a far better education than what they give at public schools in Norway.

That is one of the reasons why I am going to move away from Norway before I get my own family.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Zanthius]
    #10163398 - 04/14/09 11:02 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
In Norway homeschooling is illegal




:eek: Did not know that, thanks for the info!


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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