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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Trepiodos]
#10155703 - 04/13/09 12:55 AM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Trepiodos said:
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Mr. Mushrooms said: Spirits aren't material.
That is (more or less) the nature of fantasy, it is only material to the extent that it is a thought pattern in the brain of a material being.
Please explain the nature of consciousness using only material terms. A universe made only of matter is the ultimate fantasy.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: zouden]
#10155728 - 04/13/09 01:00 AM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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zouden said:
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MindGorilla said: So I'd like to hear some good arguments on why people think that God does NOT exist.
It's very simple: lack of evidence. I don't think that unicorns exist, for the same reason.
There is no evidence that a human mind evolved--none. All we have is supposition. There is nothing like the human mind, for all we know, in the universe--nothing. If we interpret all we see as material, hamstrung by methodological naturalism, that is all we will perceive. If we look to philosophical evidence for immaterial existence, there is plenty to be had. You can start with the mind.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Mr. Mushrooms said:
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zouden said:
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MindGorilla said: So I'd like to hear some good arguments on why people think that God does NOT exist.
It's very simple: lack of evidence. I don't think that unicorns exist, for the same reason.
There is no evidence that a human mind evolved--none. All we have is supposition. There is nothing like the human mind, for all we know, in the universe--nothing. If we interpret all we see as material, hamstrung by methodological naturalism, that is all we will perceive. If we look to philosophical evidence for immaterial existence, there is plenty to be had. You can start with the mind.
In excavating sites of early hominids, we find the complexity of the tools advances with each new species. Granted, our own technology has advanced immensely over the last 5,000 years, the changes in tools we see in early hominids correspond roughly to changes in cranial capacity. Thus, we can see a gradual development of the human intellect over time. You seem to be big on assertions and short on arguments.
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Poid
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_and_intelligence:
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Brain size is a rudimentary indicator of the intelligence of a brain, and many other factors affect the intelligence of a brain.
Brain size does not necessarily indicate intelligence. Parrots are known for being intelligent creatures, whereas a walruses aren't.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Silversoul said:
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Mr. Mushrooms said:
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zouden said:
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MindGorilla said: So I'd like to hear some good arguments on why people think that God does NOT exist.
It's very simple: lack of evidence. I don't think that unicorns exist, for the same reason.
There is no evidence that a human mind evolved--none. All we have is supposition. There is nothing like the human mind, for all we know, in the universe--nothing. If we interpret all we see as material, hamstrung by methodological naturalism, that is all we will perceive. If we look to philosophical evidence for immaterial existence, there is plenty to be had. You can start with the mind.
In excavating sites of early hominids, we find the complexity of the tools advances with each new species. Granted, our own technology has advanced immensely over the last 5,000 years, the changes in tools we see in early hominids correspond roughly to changes in cranial capacity. Thus, we can see a gradual development of the human intellect over time. You seem to be big on assertions and short on arguments.
Please leave what I seem to be out of the argument. It has nothing to do with it.
>In excavating sites of early hominids...
This relies on more than a few hypotheses:
1) The geologic record as interpreted by Uniformitarianism, criticized by evolutionist, Stephen Jay Gould:
Stephen Jay Gould's first scientific paper, Is uniformitarianism necessary? (1965), reduced these four interpretations to two, substantive and methodological uniformitarianism[7]. He rejected the first as an unjustified limitation on scientific inquiry, as it constrains past geologic rates and conditions to those of the present. He dismissed the second principle, which asserted spatial and temporal invariance of natural laws, as no longer an issue of debate.
As the certainty and connection between some fossils have not been completely worked out, the issue relies more on one's metaphysical convictions than anything to do with objectivity.
>we find the complexity of the tools advances with each new species.
That relies on the definition of complexity. There is a radical difference between a monkey using a twig that it found in nature to fish out some termites and ancient man making a tool with other tools. This is a distinction that cannot be overcome by appealing to the evolutionary paradigm. From the beginning, man has been radically distinct from other animals.
>the changes in tools we see in early hominids correspond roughly to changes in cranial capacity.
There is evidence that the data was fudged.
>Thus, we can see a gradual development of the human intellect over time.
No, we can interpret the data that way if we do not understand the radical difference between perceptual abstraction and conceptual abstraction. We can do it, and we'd be wrong.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
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Mr. Mushrooms said: There is nothing like the human mind, for all we know, in the universe--nothing.
Not Cro-Magnon Man? Neanderthal? Australopithecus? Chimpanzee? Dog? Rat? These things are all like the human mind, with varying degrees of similarity.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Poid]
#10155960 - 04/13/09 02:10 AM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Poid said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_and_intelligence:
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Brain size is a rudimentary indicator of the intelligence of a brain, and many other factors affect the intelligence of a brain.
Brain size does not necessarily indicate intelligence. Parrots are known for being intelligent creatures, whereas a walruses aren't.
An excellent point, Poid. Send my best to your bird.
Yes, many are used to pointing out the termite-fishing monkeys, but few are aware of that ravens also fish with twigs. Again, this is the difference between perceptual abstraction (that any animal can have, even with small brains) and conceptual abstraction that man has had since the beginning.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: zouden]
#10155963 - 04/13/09 02:12 AM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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zouden said:
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Mr. Mushrooms said: There is nothing like the human mind, for all we know, in the universe--nothing.
Not Cro-Magnon Man? Neanderthal? Australopithecus? Chimpanzee? Dog? Rat? These things are all like the human mind, with varying degrees of similarity.
Nope. We have two types of minds, man's and the others. The difference is radical in kind. Someday, when I get a moment, I'll create a thread on it. There seems to be a lot of philosophical confusion surrounding the topic.
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zouden
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So humans are smarter than other animals. We know that. How does that prove the existence of God?
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Poid
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: zouden]
#10155971 - 04/13/09 02:15 AM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Mr. Mushrooms said: An excellent point, Poid. Send my best to your bird.
He's been gone for almost three years now, but thanks!
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zouden said:
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Mr. Mushrooms said: There is nothing like the human mind, for all we know, in the universe--nothing.
Not Cro-Magnon Man? Neanderthal? Australopithecus? Chimpanzee? Dog? Rat? These things are all like the human mind, with varying degrees of similarity.
That just forces us to go back and ask, "What is the mind?".
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: zouden]
#10155977 - 04/13/09 02:17 AM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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zouden said: So humans are smarter than other animals. We know that. How does that prove the existence of God?
Mathematics speaks of proof(s); we're talking about evidence. If mind is immaterial, mind could be something other; the something other could be God.
This is pure philosophical evidence. and clever at that
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Poid
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But what if neither the mind or God are immaterial? As far as I know, there is no convincing evidence that they either are or aren't.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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zouden
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Indeed, who said the mind is immaterial?
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Lakefingers
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: spyder]
#10156009 - 04/13/09 02:37 AM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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spyder said: You are operating under the rules of science, proof in a court room is different. At this time you cannot prove God under the rules of science, you don't have the tools. Just because you do not have the tools to prove something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I think it is up to each person to decide how much evidence is enough.
We're not in a court room (unless you think your theological postulates are in some way legal?). In any case, court room proof is judged by peers and professionals. Where's the proof when you experience God?
Also We're discussing this as theology and science. Reread what you've written in the thread.
The rest of your post has no bearing on what I said and seems more like a parroting of some widely accepted truisms in lack of anything worthwhile to say yet feigned as an attempt to corral me into some position I haven't identified myself with.
If each person decides how much evidence is enough, what is the point of evidence?
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Poid
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Some need less evidence to be entirely convinced about things than others, and it's not necessarily a good or a bad thing.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Poid]
#10156043 - 04/13/09 02:47 AM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Poid said: But what if neither the mind or God are immaterial? As far as I know, there is no convincing evidence that they either are or aren't.
Whether something is convincing or not has little to do with the argument itself. Evolutionists and Creationists alike are bombarded with contrary evidence that is anomalous, yet it rolls off their backs like water.
See Argument from Personal Incredulity.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: zouden]
#10156054 - 04/13/09 02:50 AM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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zouden said: Indeed, who said the mind is immaterial?
Mortimer Adler. I've posted his video with Bill Buckley a half a dozen times in this forum.
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Poid
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My point is that there is no common consensus on what the mind, and God for that matter, is.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Poid]
#10156059 - 04/13/09 02:52 AM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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A good point as long as one remembers argumentum ad populam, i.e. consensus, can be a logical fallacy.
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zouden
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I don't understand your statement "If mind is immaterial, mind could be something other; the something other could be God." because by that reasoning, music could be God too. Or love could be God. Or L'esprit de l'escalier could be God.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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