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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineMindGorilla
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Atheist welcome!
    #10138465 - 04/09/09 06:57 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

So I'd like to hear some good arguments on why people think that God does NOT exist.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: MindGorilla]
    #10138478 - 04/09/09 06:58 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Define God and which sense of exist you're using.  Exist in physical reality?  Exist in the same sense as numbers exist?  How about in the same sense as thoughts?  Or do you mean God in some transcendent state of exists?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: deCypher]
    #10138486 - 04/09/09 07:00 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I have a lot of respect for agnostics... atheists are waaaay too assertive

though if you define theism narrowly as a judeochristian monotheistic God etc... I can totally dig the leanings that way

but to assert that your sense organs are enough data feed to discredit the possibility of _any_ theological dimension to life... I dunno... way too assertive to me


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OfflineMindGorilla
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: deCypher]
    #10138502 - 04/09/09 07:03 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

hmm good question, as something that is either real or not real in whatever context you choose.



and the question i must ask you deCypher, is existing in physical reality an actual trait, is there any difference of that which exist in mind?

Edited by MindGorilla (04/09/09 07:04 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: MindGorilla]
    #10138790 - 04/09/09 07:54 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Well, for "soft" atheism(lack of belief in God), they would simply point to the lack of physical evidence of God.  They would say that if you can explain the universe without God, then God is not necessary, and therefore there is no reason to assume that God exists.  Their position is that the burden of proof is on the believer.

"Hard" atheism(active disbelief in God) has a harder case to argue, and I think it tends to come more from a visceral reaction against religion than out of any reasoned arguments.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: MindGorilla]
    #10139160 - 04/09/09 08:49 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MindGorilla said:
hmm good question, as something that is either real or not real in whatever context you choose.




Then sure, God exists as an idea in my head.  You allowed me to pick the easy way out.  :razz:

Quote:

MindGorilla said: and the question i must ask you deCypher, is existing in physical reality an actual trait, is there any difference of that which exist in mind?




I'd say ultimately both physical and mental are merely different properties of the same fundamental substance, so any difference between that which exists in the one versus the other would merely be a matter of perspective.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Silversoul]
    #10140697 - 04/10/09 03:24 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Well, for "soft" atheism(lack of belief in God), they would simply point to the lack of physical evidence of God. 




Possibly one of the silliest notions I have ever heard.  Spirits aren't material.

Quote:

They would say that if you can explain the universe without God, then God is not necessary, and therefore there is no reason to assume that God exists.




A feat no one has mastered.  Though some turn to evolution, the other creation story.

Quote:

Their position is that the burden of proof is on the believer.




A loaded question most of the time.  If God is a spirit, the best evidence for His existence would likewise be spiritual.

Quote:

"Hard" atheism(active disbelief in God) has a harder case to argue, and I think it tends to come more from a visceral reaction against religion than out of any reasoned arguments.




Indeed. And the counter argument is found in scripture.

The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God."  No one can provide evidence for a negative.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10140779 - 04/10/09 04:43 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

So spiritual is not physical and you know this how? I rather suspect it is related to subatomic particles if it does exist.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: MindGorilla]
    #10140806 - 04/10/09 05:10 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

People don't think God exists because God is not a thought that is thinkable, you cant think about God, see God, touch God or know God, its beyond all comprehension & beyond all the senses, its indefinable

People who have come into realization of God say God is love, bliss, pure compassion etc... some people can't understand this as life is full of terrible horrific suffering so they say "where is God now?"

If your load of suffering fully burns it will bring you into union, people don't realize God because they are running from their suffering, as we all are to some extent, also the arrogance of the ego just recoils at the slightest mention of the G word. "Something superior to ME!!!???" Secretly, deep down, every ego thinks they are the highest, as the ego is the reflection of the highest!

Ignorance blocks the natural realization of God, theres no way round it, sorry! :tongue:



:peace:


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Chronic7]
    #10140819 - 04/10/09 05:23 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

There is no argument that can prove that god does not exist because God can be anything. You can show that the christian god does not exist though


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OfflineJethro Tull
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Chronic7]
    #10141119 - 04/10/09 08:25 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
People don't think God exists because God is not a thought that is thinkable, you cant think about God, see God, touch God or know God, its beyond all comprehension & beyond all the senses, its indefinable

People who have come into realization of God say God is love, bliss, pure compassion etc... some people can't understand this as life is full of terrible horrific suffering so they say "where is God now?"

If your load of suffering fully burns it will bring you into union, people don't realize God because they are running from their suffering, as we all are to some extent, also the arrogance of the ego just recoils at the slightest mention of the G word. "Something superior to ME!!!???" Secretly, deep down, every ego thinks they are the highest, as the ego is the reflection of the highest!

Ignorance blocks the natural realization of God, theres no way round it, sorry! :tongue:




:thumbup::thumbup:

"God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought. It’s as simple as that." Joseph Campbell


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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

DC at:  Oneness

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InvisibleSwyfty Swyf
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Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 7,113
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Silversoul]
    #10141209 - 04/10/09 08:51 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Well, for "soft" atheism(lack of belief in God), they would simply point to the lack of physical evidence of God.  They would say that if you can explain the universe without God, then God is not necessary, and therefore there is no reason to assume that God exists.  Their position is that the burden of proof is on the believer.

"Hard" atheism(active disbelief in God) has a harder case to argue, and I think it tends to come more from a visceral reaction against religion than out of any reasoned arguments.




:thumbup:  "Agnosticism" is the term refering to the belief system for "soft" atheists.


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If you build it they will shrug.
:shrug:

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InvisibleSwyfty Swyf
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Chronic7]
    #10141332 - 04/10/09 09:16 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

People don't think God exists because God is not a thought that is thinkable, you cant think about God, see God, touch God or know God, its beyond all comprehension & beyond all the senses, its indefinable




God is definable and takes on differnet subjective definitions, but God's existence is undeniably unproven.

Quote:

People who have come into realization of God say God is love, bliss, pure compassion etc... some people can't understand this as life is full of terrible horrific suffering so they say "where is God now?"




Has anyone really come into a realization of God?  Prove it.

Quote:

If your load of suffering fully burns it will bring you into union, people don't realize God because they are running from their suffering, as we all are to some extent, also the arrogance of the ego just recoils at the slightest mention of the G word. "Something superior to ME!!!???" Secretly, deep down, every ego thinks they are the highest, as the ego is the reflection of the highest!




Everyone goes through suffering, regardless of whether they believe in something currently unproven or not.  To suggest that atheists/ agnostics are running from our suffering is almost as absurd as your statement that we are unable to accept a power greater than ourselves.

I am an agnostic, and I might be egotistical at times, but I don't think I am higher or more superior than anyone else.  There are plenty of powers greater than myself, and some of them have badges and guns.  Agnostics are much more humble than you give credit.  We just don't believe things "just because."  It has nothing to do with our personal interior conflicts, if we happen to have them.

Quote:

  Ignorance blocks the natural realization of God, theres no way round it, sorry! :tongue:
:peace:




I think admitting my own ignorance has actually opened my mind to the immense possibilty that there is no God, and maybe I should get to work in order make some substance out of the things for which I have prayed.

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InvisibleKukaracha
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
    #10141461 - 04/10/09 09:45 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I don't believe in God since it seems like a bag labelled "GOD" where people put the unkown and their expectations, such as "God created me" and "God is love".

Like making a big concept out of everything we don't know... and call it divinity, actually moving the unknown from the inside of the human world to the outside, the unexplainable, and finally coloring this "unexplainable" with the colors you like.

Saying: "Humans can completely understand and control their world, what they can not understand and control is God"

Denial of the world's absurdity and the human powerlessness.

What I say anyway is made of beliefs, too.

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OfflineLSDreamer
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Kukaracha]
    #10141482 - 04/10/09 09:52 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

The Ultimate Boeing 747 argument is fairly sound IMO. The Problem of Evil is pretty damaging to the concept of an omnibenevolent god. Also, free will and omniscience aren't too compatible. Et al. Nothing you haven't heard before, I'm sure.


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InvisibleSwyfty Swyf
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Kukaracha]
    #10141485 - 04/10/09 09:53 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kukaracha said:
I don't believe in God since it seems like a bag labelled "GOD" where people put the unkown and their expectations, such as "God created me" and "God is love".

Like making a big concept out of everything we don't know... and call it divinity, actually moving the unknown from the inside of the human world to the outside, the unexplainable, and finally coloring this "unexplainable" with the colors you like.

Saying: "Humans can completely understand and control their world, what they can not understand and control is God"

Denial of the world's absurdity and the human powerlessness.

What I say anyway is made of beliefs, too.




That sounds pretty observational and logical to me.


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If you build it they will shrug.
:shrug:

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InvisibleSwyfty Swyf
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: LSDreamer]
    #10141510 - 04/10/09 10:01 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

LSDreamer said:
The Ultimate Boeing 747 argument is fairly sound IMO. The Problem of Evil is pretty damaging to the concept of an omnibenevolent god. Also, free will and omniscience aren't too compatible. Et al. Nothing you haven't heard before, I'm sure.




Richard Dawkins is the man!  A crane is more probable than a skyhook!

BTW, glad to see you got your avatar back.

As soon as you changed it, a n00b swiped it!


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If you build it they will shrug.
:shrug:

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OfflineLSDreamer
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
    #10141880 - 04/10/09 11:48 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Swyfty Swyf said:
Quote:

LSDreamer said:
The Ultimate Boeing 747 argument is fairly sound IMO. The Problem of Evil is pretty damaging to the concept of an omnibenevolent god. Also, free will and omniscience aren't too compatible. Et al. Nothing you haven't heard before, I'm sure.




Richard Dawkins is the man!  A crane is more probable than a skyhook!

BTW, glad to see you got your avatar back.

As soon as you changed it, a n00b swiped it!




Eh? I don't think I've changed my avatar since I registered.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10142065 - 04/10/09 12:15 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

    They would say that if you can explain the universe without God, then God is not necessary, and therefore there is no reason to assume that God exists.



A feat no one has mastered.  Though some turn to evolution, the other creation story.



I'm sorry, your comment makes no sense. What do you mean by mastered? I know people who have mastered it. Veritas your nemesis in fact and she can adequately defend her position to boot, and I'm pretty close myself.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Atheist welcome! [Re: Icelander]
    #10142091 - 04/10/09 12:20 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas your nemesis in fact and she can adequately defend her position to boot




Does this tie into the 'Hatred' thread?


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