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Invisibledaytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: deCypher]
    #10117553 - 04/06/09 03:28 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Yea, I understand now, and also I do think we must assume that they somehow meet. We have to shoulder a bias.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: Jethro Tull]
    #10117638 - 04/06/09 03:47 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Jethro Tull said:
I see where you're coming from, and I agree with your points.  The mind/ego and body are always there, useful "tools" for you to experience the universe.  ....




you might want to agree with me,
I am still saying that the body and ego are not tools,
and the person is the body and mind, much of which is ego,
so the person is not separate from body and ego,
ergo body and ego are not tools they are the person,
the person experiences directly,
unless the person is busy creating something or defending themself from experience, which some people metaphorically call the "filters"
(the mechanism of truncating experience down to a minimum)

as such, body and ego are certainly not - "useful tools for you to experience the universe".
they are you


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #10117789 - 04/06/09 04:14 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I am still saying that the body and ego are not tools,
and the person is the body and mind, much of which is ego,
so the person is not separate from body and ego,
ergo body and ego are not tools they are the person,
the person experiences directly,


:thumbup:

As if the ego was something one could put away and still go about the business of awareness.:crazy2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: Jethro Tull]
    #10117880 - 04/06/09 04:31 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Your description of the ego as a tool, is close to my understanding of what the ego is.  The current popular definition of the ego is wrong as far as I am concerned. There are two realities. One is the conscious mind, or "ego". The second is the subconscious mind. The ego restricts access to the subconscious mind through intimidation, fear, and prejudice.  The ego knows that if you access your subconscious mind, it will be relegated to minority status.  Once you access your subconscious mind you learn to control your ego, and use it as a tool.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10117905 - 04/06/09 04:35 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

The ego knows that if you access your subconscious mind, it will be relegated to minority status.

Do you back this with anything other then your opinion?

and how does a "tool" "know" something?

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: Icelander]
    #10118047 - 04/06/09 05:00 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Thank you for an easy question. Lets say I coach a sports team. Each player on the team I use as a "tool" for a particular outcome. What is philosophy,and psychology? A collection of peoples opinions.  If you have proof that I am wrong, I would welcome it.

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10118209 - 04/06/09 05:33 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I like to define ego as the mental force of your body that can identify stimulus and direct a proper reaction when the stimulus (ie pain/pleasure) that assaults the whole body or parts of the body is sensed in the moment.

Like if you stabbed me in the leg, my mental forefront (ego, but man it seems like our mind is on a continuum at some level)  will direct my wholeness into action but the human ego might go "I HURT THERE" etc... we have mastered the ego game in a sense and have combined grammar and higher language into this... whereas the lower animal might go "ARGH" or some generic plea of distress. The level of complexity all could be connected to external forces of whether or not the given organism is social or not...

Like the basic ego is reflexive and instinctual but we higher animals seem to compound on that. The human seems to be able to couple this ego reaction/action force with a sense of categorization/representation via words/communicative language. So in a sense our complex bodies have developed quite hand in hand through the refining of this bodily awareness.

Which perhaps could be said to be constructed mostly through circumstances of external forces, so I like to look at life as a basic willing and then it is shaped via the forces it emerges from while always immersed in and directed by these basic circumstances. Just look at the diversity of life on earth, and imagine what sort of life forms would be like on planets with different gravity, etc etc etc...

But yes, at some level I think this whole concept of ego is quite connected, but of course idealism of this sort is pretty much just words and insignificant. Its paradoxical and seems to be the magnificence of being. But yes, I get a feeling of connection, being that I know the human comes from a shared will of life and that we are product of evolution and that seems quite a connection.


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

Edited by andrewss (04/06/09 05:43 PM)

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: deCypher]
    #10118327 - 04/06/09 05:57 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Yes, I ended my OP with an exhortation to pursue a more egoistic philosophy partly because I feel too many spiritual seekers lean the opposite way; I suggest the minority position only to make the point that both perspectives need carry equal weight.





I liked your post, good stuff. I like to think that whole revelation of "OMG we are all connected, etc etc" - that whole mystical thing is a pretty human luxury which came in the wake of our domination of many other life forms, however this connection realization has its part, just like the harsher ego conflict of life on earth - so I liked what you had to say. I think something about nature itself shows us that this fundamental conflict of individuals predicates all we know and see in the realm of life and its diversity. It just means that humans have stumbled across a bit of a "transcendental" condition of it all. Which is pretty awesome but also pretty hard to apprehend. Amazing stuff.


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: deCypher]
    #10121195 - 04/07/09 02:21 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
The Tao neither is nor is not; To imply that one view is correct while the other is wrong is to remain ontologically biased.




Quote:

deCypher said:
Speaking from the individualistic perspective, I should be concerned solely with my own gain, which may or may not involve serving the whole.




I think the Tao is when your egoistic desire is to serve the whole, so that there is no distinction between egoism and altruism. You can call it egoaltruism.

Edited by Zanthius (04/07/09 02:29 AM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10122460 - 04/07/09 10:47 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

C.M. Mann said:
Thank you for an easy question. Lets say I coach a sports team. Each player on the team I use as a "tool" for a particular outcome. What is philosophy,and psychology? A collection of peoples opinions.  If you have proof that I am wrong, I would welcome it.






"The ego knows that if you access your subconscious mind, it will be relegated to minority status."
---------------------------------

Do you back this with anything other then your opinion?


What about this part of the question?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: Zanthius]
    #10122472 - 04/07/09 10:50 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
I think the Tao is when your egoistic desire is to serve the whole, so that there is no distinction between egoism and altruism. You can call it egoaltruism.




I don't think that's what the Tao is because the Tao is undefinable, but I do agree that the relationship between egoism (serving the self) and altruism (serving society) will eventually evolve to an equilibrium point where egoistic desires do serve society and altruistic desires serve the self.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: deCypher]
    #10122562 - 04/07/09 11:06 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not as hopeful as you. It's easy to point a finger at politicians and rich folk or criminals and say yeah but they are a minority. After working in "alternative" work environments that claimed and advertised their moral superiority I saw the same amount of dysfunctional emotional behavior and criminal activity as I did in main stream workplaces. Mostly people try to hide it around the very liberal town I live in and cover-up is the rule but I see the same animal dynamics that I read in the history books and it seems at about the same level. Nothing much has changed IMO other then the propaganda and spin, which is much more sophisticated now IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: Icelander]
    #10122593 - 04/07/09 11:13 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

personal experience.:bigblunt:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10122607 - 04/07/09 11:15 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

That's what I though.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: Icelander]
    #10122612 - 04/07/09 11:15 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I'm not as hopeful as you. It's easy to point a finger at politicians and rich folk or criminals and say yeah but they are a minority. After working in "alternative" work environments that claimed and advertised their moral superiority I saw the same amount of dysfunctional emotional behavior and criminal activity as I did in main stream workplaces. Mostly people try to hide it around the very liberal town I live in and cover-up is the rule but I see the same animal dynamics that I read in the history books and it seems at about the same level. Nothing much has changed IMO other then the propaganda and spin, which is much more sophisticated now IMO.




I think you're correct in your assessment of the current situation but I also feel the increasing progression of technology and rate of globalization will inevitably create massive change in the usual moral dynamic.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: deCypher]
    #10122633 - 04/07/09 11:18 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Hope springs eternal. aka death anxiety.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: Icelander]
    #10122652 - 04/07/09 11:21 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah that's a good explanation.  Personally I'm not sure whether this global change will happen during my lifetime, though, but I do believe it is inevitable.

A good quote on this topic by Eugene Weber:

We yearn for some explosive, extraordinary escape from the inescapable and, none forthcoming, we put our faith in an apocalyptic rupture whereby the inevitable is solved by the unbelievable grasshoppers, plagues, composite monsters, angels, blood in industrial quantities, and, in the end, salvation from sin and evil--mneaning anxiety, travail, and pain.  By defining human suffering in cosmic terms, as part of a cosmic order that contains an issue, catastrophe is dignified, endowed with meaning, and hence made bearable.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: deCypher]
    #10122665 - 04/07/09 11:24 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

That's a great quote IMO and spot on.:thumbup:

The scary part is many of our political leaders see it just like that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: Icelander]
    #10122774 - 04/07/09 11:43 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

"That's what I though" , is not proof that I am wrong. My views come from experience, and I am open to discussion about your experience.  Your conservative views of the ego are chic, but nobody from your camp has ever proven anything. It's time to take this question beyond it's restrictive boundaries.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The presence or absence of ego... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10122808 - 04/07/09 11:48 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

The burden of proof is on the one making the assertion and that's you.

Personal experience is not proof anymore than my saying God told me in private that you are going to hell.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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