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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Photon Entropy?
    #10112574 - 04/06/09 04:44 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Does the light from the stars keep going infinitely out into the void or does it curve back around and eventually come back?


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10112631 - 04/06/09 04:56 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I'm pretty sure it keeps going because the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10112645 - 04/06/09 04:58 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

If it does turn back, it would presumably take too long to do so for us to measure it.

What is the philosophical and/or spiritual significance of this question?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10112714 - 04/06/09 05:09 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If it does turn back, it would presumably take too long to do so for us to measure it.




Well that explains why when I flicked my new hi-power LED flashlight at the sky and then waited all night to see it come back and - nuttin'.

Spiritual significance is obvious: if the light comes back and we are beings made of light, then we will come back as well. :cool:


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10112717 - 04/06/09 05:10 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

We are made of light?


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InvisibleNlightNd1
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10112722 - 04/06/09 05:10 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I imagine it would continuously diffuse out into space until eventually every photon gets pulled into a super massive black hole in the centers of galaxies. Many of the photons will be converted into another form of energy such as heat. A very small number of photons may escape to see the end of the universe, which no one knows how it will end. Theoretically it could be possible for the photons to travel until the point where they come back if the fabric of space-time had a curvature to it. Scientists believe that because the universe is expanding, that it all came from one point, the Big Bang. The universe may actually be expanding from countless points rather than just one. The "known" universe as they call it, is all expanding from one point but that doesn't mean that it's the only center of expansion. So what this really boils down to is it all depends on the true structure of the Universe which is unknown.


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Turn off your mind, relax and floatdown stream. It is not dying. Lay down all thought, surrender to the void. It is shining.

:darkside: Pink Floyd :darkside:


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InvisibleNlightNd1
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10112798 - 04/06/09 05:24 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

if the light comes back and we are beings made of light, then we will come back as well.




The Law of Conservation of Energy states that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, which means that energy is eternal. It has no beginning and no end. We aren't made of light but light is reflecting off us. We are however made of energy which is the raw material for everything in existence. So the energy that we're made of will remain forever but it will break down into other forms of energy. Who's to say that our consciousness energy doesn't remain forever? Life/consciousness/soul w/e is a form of energy that very likely exists on an eternal level. When we die, our bodies' energy gets converted into other forms of energy but what happens to the consciousness energy? Maybe it doesn't break down when we die but rather exits into another realm. Scientists have basically unknowingly demonstrated that there are other dimensions. The Big Bang is basically proof. All this energy that our universe is constructed of didn't just come from nowhere because that violates the Law of Conservation of Energy. Therefore, it could be nothing other than the product of another dimension. You can't create an entire universe from nothing, obviously. Black holes which were once theory but now fact are also evidence of other dimensions. Super massive black holes in the centers of galaxies have been pulling countless stars and energy into their depths which appear to be infinite. That energy must be going somewhere. Unless it's exiting into another part of our dimension, like some scientists believe, it has to be going into another universe. Sorry I'm getting way off topic here.


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Turn off your mind, relax and floatdown stream. It is not dying. Lay down all thought, surrender to the void. It is shining.

:darkside: Pink Floyd :darkside:


Edited by NlightNd1 (04/06/09 05:28 AM)


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: NlightNd1]
    #10113027 - 04/06/09 06:02 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Law of conservation of energy only applies to our universe, anything outside/before the universe it doesn't apply.

And what is all this about consciousness energy?

You've got stuff about "Who's to say that this isn't...." is just appealing it ignorance. I could just as easily say "Who's to say it is"


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InvisibleNlightNd1
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: learningtofly]
    #10113068 - 04/06/09 06:10 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Yes I see where you're coming from. A lot of the things I say are just my beliefs and I tend to fail to mention that they're just my beliefs/philosophies. I'm just trying to get the gears turning in people's brains.


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Turn off your mind, relax and floatdown stream. It is not dying. Lay down all thought, surrender to the void. It is shining.

:darkside: Pink Floyd :darkside:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: learningtofly]
    #10113124 - 04/06/09 06:17 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You've got stuff about "Who's to say that this isn't...." is just appealing it ignorance. I could just as easily say "Who's to say it is"




Sounds like you have the makings of a 15 pager there. Go for it! :pirate:


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (04/06/09 06:26 AM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: learningtofly]
    #10113148 - 04/06/09 06:21 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Law of conservation of energy only applies to our universe, anything outside/before the universe it doesn't apply.




If I take one step outside the universe *boing* no law of conservation and anarchy reigns supreme; then I step back in the universe *boing* and once again all forces are under martial law.

Hmmm, I wonder how many times I could do that in under a minute...


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Offlineillume
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: NlightNd1]
    #10113172 - 04/06/09 06:26 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

:popcorn:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: illume]
    #10113187 - 04/06/09 06:28 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I want to hate you, but your avatar won't let me. :tongue2:


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Onlinedeff
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10113229 - 04/06/09 06:34 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

yeah that's one nice avatar :smile:


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10113325 - 04/06/09 06:50 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Law of conservation of energy only applies to our universe, anything outside/before the universe it doesn't apply.




If I take one step outside the universe *boing* no law of conservation and anarchy reigns supreme; then I step back in the universe *boing* and once again all forces are under martial law.

Hmmm, I wonder how many times I could do that in under a minute...




First you would have to be able to get to the "Edge" of the universe, whatever that may be, and then you would have to be able to travel fast enough to get out of it, assuming that the universe is not curved and then.... well you already know where im going with this because I have read enough of your posts to know you're an intelligent human being.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: learningtofly]
    #10113356 - 04/06/09 06:57 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Yoo-hoo, oh moderator... :grin:


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10114516 - 04/06/09 11:31 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If I take one step outside the universe *boing* no law of conservation and anarchy reigns supreme; then I step back in the universe *boing* and once again all forces are under martial law.

Hmmm, I wonder how many times I could do that in under a minute...





Hey, thats a part of quantum theory.  Did you know that, or independently invent it?  :wink:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10114526 - 04/06/09 11:36 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

*cue Monty Norman guitar theme - Dum diddy dum dum, da diddy dum diddy dum dum*

My name is Foam, Quantum Foam...


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10114536 - 04/06/09 11:41 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Why would the light come back?


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10114567 - 04/06/09 12:00 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I guess that depends on the size of the highway your little light beam buggy has to cruise down, and proportionally how long it's going to be around for.

p.s...I wasn't here. :shiftyeyes:


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Invisiblevirus1824
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: blewmeanie]
    #10114587 - 04/06/09 12:21 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Does the light from the stars keep going infinitely out into the void


as far as i know photon decays into the radio spectrum (comsmic background radiation)


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A weekend wasted is never a wasted weekend


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10114643 - 04/06/09 12:49 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Does the light from the stars keep going infinitely out into the void or does it curve back around and eventually come back?




Photons don't experience time and distance. Time comes to a complete stop at lightspeed, and distances shrink to zero.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10114662 - 04/06/09 12:58 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Does the light from the stars keep going infinitely out into the void or does it curve back around and eventually come back?




It comes back. The universe has a finite size but no boundaries, so the topology loops. So if you go in a straight line for long enough you eventually come back where you started from. But light is so dilated by the expansion of the universe that it's just background noise if/when it comes back.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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OfflineCubie
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: learningtofly]
    #10114674 - 04/06/09 01:02 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
I'm pretty sure it keeps going because the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light.




yea i think u hit the nail on the head


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Cubie]
    #10114675 - 04/06/09 01:03 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cubie said:
Quote:

learningtofly said:
I'm pretty sure it keeps going because the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light.




yea i think u hit the nail on the head



Is it expanding, or are photons decaying? :evil:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: zouden]
    #10114748 - 04/06/09 01:24 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So if you go in a straight line for long enough you eventually come back where you started from.




I am suddenly feeling closed in. *gasps for air* I need more room! :hissyfit:


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Offlineillume
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10114793 - 04/06/09 01:46 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

So if you go in a straight line for long enough you eventually come back where you started from.




I am suddenly feeling closed in. *gasps for air* I need more room! :hissyfit:



lol....


on a serious note though.
has anyone looked into the m theory?
sure there may be this looping effect as talked about earlier, but what about at other frequencies? black holes etc? is it not possible that when light breaks down and becomes this radiation as talked about earlier it actually enters another plane of vibrational existence?:awesome:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: NlightNd1]
    #10114876 - 04/06/09 02:45 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The universe may actually be expanding from countless points rather than just one. The "known" universe as they call it, is all expanding from one point but that doesn't mean that it's the only center of expansion.

There is no "center" to the expansion. Everything in the universe is expanding away from everything else. In effect, almost every point in the universe could be considered "the center"...if you were to look out from any point, the father away any given object is will be increasing by a factor of its distance from you.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: learningtofly]
    #10114885 - 04/06/09 02:50 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

First you would have to be able to get to the "Edge" of the universe, whatever that may be, and then you would have to be able to travel fast enough to get out of it, assuming that the universe is not curved and then....

You could not get to an "edge" of the universe. Think of a soap bubble...specifically the 2D "world" set out by the bubble's surface. Does this 2D world have an "edge"? To any 2D creature living on its surface, there is no such thing as an edge to the universe. To be able to move off of its 2D universe, the creature must be able to move in the third dimension...something that it is unable to do (being only a 2D creature).


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: virus1824]
    #10114890 - 04/06/09 02:54 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

virus1824 said:
Quote:

Does the light from the stars keep going infinitely out into the void


as far as i know photon decays into the radio spectrum (comsmic background radiation)




Photons are part of the radio spectrum...and they don't decay. Ever. A photon doesn't have any time to decay, because it does not experience time. A photon couldn't decay in the first place, being a charge carrier and not made of anything else.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: trendal]
    #10114940 - 04/06/09 03:29 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

But it can be red-shifted into the radio spectrum.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: zouden]
    #10114965 - 04/06/09 03:44 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

A red-shift isn't a decay :shrug:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: trendal]
    #10114973 - 04/06/09 03:48 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I know. virus1824 just used the wrong word, that's all.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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OfflineCubie
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: trendal]
    #10116142 - 04/06/09 08:18 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
A red-shift isn't a decay :shrug:



thats where i was going... but i lost my train of thought


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Cubie]
    #10116212 - 04/06/09 08:31 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I don't believe in truth decay. :nono:


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10116237 - 04/06/09 08:35 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
What is the philosophical and/or spiritual significance of this question?




Im curious about the answer to this question.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10116268 - 04/06/09 08:39 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

You are just jealous that you can't fly a meaningless, off-topic thread under the radar. Perhaps with years of study and disicipline...


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10116324 - 04/06/09 08:47 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Aww man, discussing photons is meaningless?  You just insulted me with with that.  :snub:


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10117580 - 04/07/09 12:34 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

OC you've done quite well with this thread :lol:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10118255 - 04/07/09 02:43 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I don't believe in truth decay. :nono:




Ah, but what of tooth decay?


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: zouden]
    #10121239 - 04/07/09 11:52 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
But it can be red-shifted into the radio spectrum.




According to Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment we can change what a photon did billions of years ago with an experiment here on earth today.

So, either a photon exists simultaneously in the past and the future, or a photon in the past knows about its own future.


Edited by Zanthius (04/07/09 12:00 PM)


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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Zanthius]
    #10121278 - 04/07/09 12:37 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

that just goes to show how little we really understand about light and time. I dont think that the past was changed atall. Just that the current theory of how photons travel and how we see "old" light is way off.


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Cubie]
    #10121294 - 04/07/09 12:50 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cubie said:
that just goes to show how little we really understand about light and time. I dont think that the past was changed atall. Just that the current theory of how photons travel and how we see "old" light is way off.




I think the past and the future exist simultaneously.

The Illusion of Time


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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Zanthius]
    #10121300 - 04/07/09 12:58 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

before i looked at that i was gonna say yea i agree kinda like falling through layers... but that is a much better way to explain it. lolz.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Zanthius]
    #10122833 - 04/07/09 08:52 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
So, either a photon exists simultaneously in the past and the future, or a photon in the past knows about its own future.





It cant exist in simultaneously in the past and future... thats saying it exists at the same time in different times - a nonsensical statement.  Nor does it know about its future, becuase quantum mechanical phenomenon are not deterministic.  You cannot predict its future state by its current state (nor can you extrapolate to its past state from its current state).


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10141414 - 04/10/09 06:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Qubit said:
It cant exist in simultaneously in the past and future... thats saying it exists at the same time in different times - a nonsensical statement.




Okay. How do you explain Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment then?


Edited by Zanthius (04/10/09 06:46 PM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Zanthius]
    #10141536 - 04/10/09 07:12 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The same way nearly all scientists explain all the weird happenings of quantum physics... with the copenhagen interpretation's probabilistic nature of the wave function.


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10142713 - 04/10/09 11:06 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Qubit said:
The same way nearly all scientists explain all the weird happenings of quantum physics... with the copenhagen interpretation's probabilistic nature of the wave function.




Do you agree that I can change what a photon did billions of years ago with Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Zanthius]
    #10142719 - 04/10/09 11:07 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

No, of course not.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Zanthius]
    #10142722 - 04/10/09 11:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

course not.  That's then, this is now.  qed


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10142730 - 04/10/09 11:10 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Qubit said:
No, of course not.




Did you read the page about Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment?


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/12/03
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Zanthius]
    #10142748 - 04/10/09 11:14 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I have learned of it before, its just a modified double slit experiment.  The resolution of the apparent paradox is that the photon's wave traveled on each of the star (just as it traveled though each slit).  Only upon observation does the wave function collapse to a value (ie, the copenhagen interpretation).


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10142798 - 04/10/09 11:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Qubit said:
I have learned of it before, its just a modified double slit experiment.  The resolution of the apparent paradox is that the photon's wave traveled on each of the star (just as it traveled though each slit).  Only upon observation does the wave function collapse to a value (ie, the copenhagen interpretation).





Well, let us say that the photon traveled in both directions for billions of years, and then suddenly when you collapse the wave-function, it only traveled one direction.

The problem is that the photon started to diverge into two directions billions of years ago, so shouldn't the choice for the photon to go "one direction" or the "other direction", be where the photon started to diverge billions of years ago?

It seems like the choice to go one direction or the other one is made billions of years after the photon started to diverge into two directions, when you collapse the wave-function.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/12/03
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: Zanthius]
    #10142829 - 04/10/09 11:31 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Nope, the photon did not start to diverge billions of years ago.  Its wave is in a superposition between all possible states until you make an observation.  You then make the observation and collapse the wave function.  Only then does the photon's apparent path get resolved to one side or the other (and it is resolved in a probabilistic nature).

edit - ahhh, that last sentence you added is more right.  Buts its not a choice that it went one way or the other... its a choice that it has characteristics that we would interpret classically as it went one way or the other.  The actual wave function extends throughout the universe, and taking all possible paths that exist.  So you cant really say that it went one way or the other - it went both ways.


Edited by Qubit (04/10/09 11:37 PM)


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Photon Entropy? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10142898 - 04/10/09 11:44 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Qubit said:
edit - ahhh, that last sentence you added is more right.  Buts its not a choice that it went one way or the other... its a choice that it has characteristics that we would interpret classically as it went one way or the other.  The actual wave function extends throughout the universe, and taking all possible paths that exist.  So you cant really say that it went one way or the other - it went both ways.




Well, the photon only went one direction after you collapsed the wave-function, but the wave-function split into two directions billions of years before you collapsed the wave-function.


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