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futura
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Cheese Grater??? Newbie needs help please!!!
#10104666 - 04/04/09 11:11 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Cheech has 10 1/2 Pint Cakes(jars were given to him by a friend of a friend...Secret recepie:Vermiculite, Brown rice flour, (hand ground), Organic 5 grains, (hand ground), popcorn (hand ground),several essential vitamins and minerals and Hi Yield Blood Meal(the steroid of the mushroom world. It produces nitrogen and allows the mushrooms to grow substantially larger)Wide Mouth Jars. Tyvek Filter Disc Topped by extra layer of Verm Autoclaved 3 hours (Lids have 4 Innoc points)5 were Nocced up with Camb and 5 with EQ 1/2 cc per hole. All are now 100% fully colonized..no Contams.
Which leads Cheech to ask the following questions???
Cheech wants to mix 5 jars to 10 lbs Compost and place in monotub and has read many posts about different ways to crumble cakes and would like opinions on them from the many experienced people on this forum or anybody who has an opinion...the more the better.
1. Cheese Grater?? Buy a brand new Cheese grater,sterilize with 70% Alch and shred(Largest Holes Used) onto compost then mix.
2. Food Processor?? Sterilize large Cusinart and Pulse till BB size then pour onto compost and mix
3. Ziploc Freezer Bag??Put cake into Bag Seal and hand crumble then pour onto Compost and mix
4. Hand Crumble(Wearing Sterilized Gloves and Face Mask) directly onto Compost and mix
Cheech will be mixing with a sterilized spoon...then fluffing with a sterilized fork and leveling out with a sterilized ruler...then leaving in dark for 2 to 3 weeks at 76-78 Deg. F for crumbled Myc to colonize bulk coompost
Cheech will then put in Garage to cold shock overnight(50 Deg F) and then put under 12/12 light at 74-76 Deg F
Cheech will not be casing this as The Compost/Monotub Tek he is following says not to. Says enough moisture in Compost for 2-3 flushes...however cheech may dunk for 6 hours between 2nd and third flush if He sees too much drying out of Myc Mat
Cheech may use the crumpled wax paper technique to initiate pinning if it looks like its neccesary.
Cheech will use a fan pointed away from monotub to help with Fresh Air/CO2 Exchange as he wont be opening monotub to fan as tek says not to.(Tek Says open only to Harvest Fruit or pick aborts)
Please help as this is cheechs first monotub and first bulk substrate attempt and he has read 100s of posts and has seeen conflicting info from most...
Any and all suggestions welcome...
Thanks!!!
Cheech
Edited by futura (04/05/09 08:27 PM)
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just me
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Re: Cheese Grater??? Newbie needs help please!!! [Re: futura]
#10104744 - 04/04/09 11:30 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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3 hours in the autoclave is WAY too long
cheesegrater will work best out of those IMO
its good youre being super sterile, but going a lil overboard on somethings. but better safe than sorry.
they do not need a cold shock. after spawning put them into a healthy colonization temp
if it looks like its drying out to you(as in you see a patch of compost thats the color of dry compost) youll need to mist it.
dunk after each flush. not a 24 hour dunk like you would with cakes. it will make the block WAY soggy. anywhere from 4-8 hours seems good
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futura
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Re: Cheese Grater??? Newbie needs help please!!! [Re: just me]
#10104776 - 04/04/09 11:34 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
just me said: 3 hours in the autoclave is WAY too long
cheesegrater will work best out of those IMO
its good youre being super sterile, but going a lil overboard on somethings. but better safe than sorry.
they do not need a cold shock. after spawning put them into a healthy colonization temp
if it looks like its drying out to you(as in you see a patch of compost thats the color of dry compost) youll need to mist it.
dunk after each flush. not a 24 hour dunk like you would with cakes. it will make the block WAY soggy. anywhere from 4-8 hours seems good
Thanks for the reply...Cheech thought 3 hours was a long time...but thats what the guy who made up the jars did(Cheech didnt make them)and first time Cheech got 100% contam free!!!
futura
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just me
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Re: Cheese Grater??? Newbie needs help please!!! [Re: futura]
#10104824 - 04/04/09 11:42 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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youre off to a beautiful start then
first batch of brf jars i did, only about 60% of them colonized. and took forever, then half of those i spawned to MGMC ONLY(dont know what i was thinkin) and they all contamed
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artizen
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Re: Cheese Grater??? Newbie needs help please!!! [Re: just me]
#10104942 - 04/04/09 12:02 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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5 1/2 pnts to 10 lbs sound like not enough spawn. not that i know what 10 lbs of compost looks like but still. 1:4 is about as thin as is reccomended. i do 1:2 ~ 1:3 with coir based mixes and get 100% in 7-10 days. do a search for "spawn calculator" very simple and beneficial. i rarely do cakes now but when i do i use the ziplock bag tek. very sterile since it's all enclosed and mad easy.
"CHEECH"
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futura
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Re: Cheese Grater??? Newbie needs help please!!! [Re: artizen]
#10105354 - 04/04/09 01:35 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
artizen said: 5 1/2 pnts to 10 lbs sound like not enough spawn. not that i know what 10 lbs of compost looks like but still. 1:4 is about as thin as is reccomended. i do 1:2 ~ 1:3 with coir based mixes and get 100% in 7-10 days. do a search for "spawn calculator" very simple and beneficial. i rarely do cakes now but when i do i use the ziplock bag tek. very sterile since it's all enclosed and mad easy.
"CHEECH" 
Thanks...Cheech Downloaded Spawn Calc and also... Cheech Went to wiki answers:
Q: How many quarts are there in a pound?
a pound is 16 ounces and a quart is 32 ounces so there is only one half of a quart in a pound..
Deb Responds: That is not right. Quart is a liquid measurement and pound is a measurement of weight. You cannot convert quarts to pounds. Deb
Wiki Responds: Wrong, Deb. A pint of water weighs approximately one pound. This approximation has been used for many many generations. "A pint, a pound, the world around." A pint is half of a quart. OP was right
Cheech is looking to do a 1:5 Ratio so I guess Cheech needs 1 Quart to 10 pounds... the tek Cheech is following suggests 1 Quart ryegrain to 10 pounds compost??? It also says two to three weeks to colonize..I guess because the spawn/sub ratio is so low...Oh well...jars are already colonized and and dont have any more so guess it will take a little longer....
So Cheech will try the 5 1/2 pints first and see what happens and next time go big and try what the spawn Calc and you suggest...Cheech will be trying 5 1/2 LB Rye Grain Bags next so that should be perfect to mix with 10 lbs Compost for a 1 to 2 ratio...
Wish me luck!!!
Thanks!!!!
Edited by futura (04/04/09 02:09 PM)
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just me
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Re: Cheese Grater??? Newbie needs help please!!! [Re: futura]
#10105365 - 04/04/09 01:38 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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artizen is right.
that will be a VERY low spwan ratio
youre workin with about 2.5 pints. or a little over one quart.
i wouldnt use more than 4 quart MAXXXX of sub
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futura
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Re: Cheese Grater??? Newbie needs help please!!! [Re: just me]
#10105409 - 04/04/09 01:51 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
just me said: artizen is right.
that will be a VERY low spwan ratio
youre workin with about 2.5 pints. or a little over one quart.
i wouldnt use more than 4 quart MAXXXX of sub
Would it not work at all if Cheech used the whole 10 pounds with 2 1/2 pints or just take forever to colonize??? I figured on three weeks?? Would Cheech be better off just using what you suggest...the 4lbs with 2 1/2 pints and having a thinner substrate level??? How deep would to thin be???
Also question on the Black plastic bag...why should Cheeh use it?? Cheech was going to put black tape on bottom of tub up about an inch over substrate level...Cheech is worried if using bag he might not see excess water buildup(His tek calls for pouring off more than an inch of standing water on bottom of tub. Cheech likes the idea of mixing in bag to keep away from walls of tub and maybe it would keep substrate moister during flushes...Are those some of the reasons to use bag and what others are there???
Thanks...youve been so helpfull...
Edited by futura (04/04/09 04:31 PM)
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just me
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Re: Cheese Grater??? Newbie needs help please!!! [Re: futura]
#10105439 - 04/04/09 02:00 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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that little spawn to that much sub will most likely stall.
too thin of a substrate would be less than an inch. ideal substrate depth would be around 3-4". What size tubs are you using anyway? for that amount of spwan and sub, i wouldnt go over 10gallon.
and yes to your final questions. it also helps keep the sub from sitting in any water pooling in the bottom. it ALSO keeps an edge around your sub as it shrinks from flushing.
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artizen
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Re: Cheese Grater??? Newbie needs help please!!! [Re: just me]
#10105729 - 04/04/09 02:58 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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yes a pint of WATER is about one lb a pint of something else is exactly that, something else. you can not compare Volume and Weight. weight is useless here. measure your compost with with a measuring cup, mason jar, milk jug, whatever. it will change weight when you add water, don't you think j/k i'm pictureing you bought the compost in approx a 2cu.ft. bag like soil comes? if so 2 cu.ft. = ~60qts. then you would need 12qts. of spawn. for 1:5 which is still too low.
what kind of compost are you using anyway? just curious.
also you wan't it to colinize faster ( 7-10 days ) so the myc can grow strong enough to defend itself before contaminants can get to the substrate. the longer it takes the better the chances are that something else will take over the sub. pasturizing your sub material only hinders the things we don't wan't in it so as not to kill the beneficial parts. then it's a race.
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futura
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Re: Cheese Grater??? Newbie needs help please!!! [Re: artizen]
#10105945 - 04/04/09 04:03 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
artizen said: yes a pint of WATER is about one lb a pint of something else is exactly that, something else. you can not compare Volume and Weight. weight is useless here. measure your compost with with a measuring cup, mason jar, milk jug, whatever. it will change weight when you add water, don't you think j/k i'm pictureing you bought the compost in approx a 2cu.ft. bag like soil comes? if so 2 cu.ft. = ~60qts. then you would need 12qts. of spawn. for 1:5 which is still too low.
what kind of compost are you using anyway? just curious.
also you wan't it to colinize faster ( 7-10 days ) so the myc can grow strong enough to defend itself before contaminants can get to the substrate. the longer it takes the better the chances are that something else will take over the sub. pasturizing your sub material only hinders the things we don't wan't in it so as not to kill the beneficial parts. then it's a race.
Cheech is Using High Mountain Compost and their tek which calls for one pound rye grain mixed with 10 lbs compost.
High Mountain Tek: You want to start by wiping off a small area of the pre-sterilized 1 Qt. rye grain bag with alcohol. Pick a spot below the filter patch, but NOT on the filter patch. Poke the needle through the bag of rye berries. Squirt 3 to 5 cc's of spore solution into the bag of grain. No more than 5 cc's per bag or it may develop wet spot bacteria or other unwanted nasties if it's too wet.
After you squirt the spore water into the bag, tape over the hole. Give it a good shake to distribute the spore water through the grain. Incubate it at anywhere from 70 deg F to 80 deg F. 75deg F is an ideal temperature. Lower temperatures around 70 deg, or below, will drastically slow down colonization, and sometimes prevent germination. Keep your compost stored in a cool dark place, perhaps the box it came in. In about 4 to 7 days, you will see healthy white mushroom mycelia growing on the grain. When the bags of grain are about 40% - 50% colonized, gently shake it up and break up the colonizing grain a little. Do not squish the rye berries, just gently break them up and distribute them around the bag. This will help for faster colonization. It's not necessary, but it will help. Give it a few more days and it should be 100% colonized. Usually they take anywhere from 10 – 16 days on average.
Next, prepare to mix the colonized grain with the HMC compost, using good clean sterile procedures such as described in this document. This is very important….it's us humans that introduce the unwanted contamination usually. Be sure your hands and arms are cleaned really well with 70% alcohol. Wear a facemask and don't breathe on the compost, lots of germs come from our breath. Wear freshly laundered clothes, and avoid any contact with animals (ie: cats & dogs) before starting the process. Try to avoid furniture that pets lay on, before and during the process. Be sure to wipe down the growing chamber with 70% alcohol first so it's sterile from germs, dirt, etc.
Remember to let the chamber completely dry before adding compost.
Next, mix 1 bag of colonized grain with 10 lbs of compost. All you need is one healthy bag of colonized rye berries to make the kit work…one bag is all most growers use.
DO NOT use any bags of grain that do not look healthy or you think might be contaminated. Smell through the patch, if it smells slightly sweet and has a malt aroma, it should be good to use. A contaminated bag will ruin the compost. If an additional bag is questionable, don't risk it, one bag of healthy colonized grain is all that is needed. And, please do not ask us for replacement bags if some of them don't work. This does rarely occur with rye grain. There are no replacements on these kits, so be cautious of bags of grain that may be unhealthy. The compost itself is what produces the mass mushrooms, not the grain.
Now you're ready to put all your compost in the chamber box. Remember, you never know what germs are on the outside of these bags before the actual day of use. Be sure to clean your hands before handling any of the bags. Put on hospital type rubber/latex gloves and mist with alcohol, allow to dry. Try and not touch the outside of the compost bag to the inside of your now sterile growing box. After dumping in your compost, clean your hands again with alcohol. Then open your bag of colonized grain and dump it in with the compost. Clean your hands again with alcohol 70%. Now start mixing the colonized grain and compost together. It is best to break up the grain in BB size pieces. The more small pieces of colonized grain means the more inoculation sites on the compost, which, in turn will help the compost colonize faster. Be sure and try to level out the surface so it's rather even. Small valleys in the top layer may cause some areas of the surface to fruit faster than others. Most mushroom mycelia colonized this compost very fast. Within 4 to 5 days, your compost should be looking whitish with mycelia.
The compost in the chamber will turn into one big solid cake mass of mycelium. Once it is fully colonized, now is a good time to initiate pinning and fruiting. By giving it a 12 x 12 on/off light cycle, it will start pinning and fruiting within 5 – 12 days (generally) of being given light. You will soon be harvesting mushrooms in a few days (almost there). Keep the light cycle going, and you should typically see 3 or more good flushes before the compost is spent. Usually flushes are 7 – 10 days apart.
GOOD TIPS
Temperature It is recommended that you keep your temps between 70f – 80f for best results. Lower temps will slow down colonizing, but will also lesson chances of contamination setting in. Some strains have fruited on this compost in temps as low as 45f, so these temps are not written in stone, they are only suggested. Temperature drops are not necessary, but they do help pinning. Also, we DO NOT recommend using heating pads under these kits. Even on low setting, they generate too much heat to the bottom. For germination of spores in the rye berry bags, try and keep them at a constant 75f-80f. Anything lower and they may take longer to germinate.
Light It is recommended to keep everything in the dark until the compost is fully colonized. Although from recent scientific reports we have read, dung-loving mushrooms will tend to give healthier flushes throughout the life cycle. The downside to this is they may start fruiting too early. We recommend keeping the compost stored in the dark until it is at least 80-70% colonized, 2 –3 weeks from when you mixed the grain into the compost. Then give it a 12 x 12 on/off light cycle for optimal results. This is not written in stone either. Normal light from a window across the room is good enough. Giving it too much light early on may initiate the pinning and fruiting cycle too early, thus giving uneven flushes of mushrooms.
So, for best results and even flushes, allow the compost to be fully colonized before giving it a regular light cycle. Sometimes you may see a few spots here and there not fully colonized, even though it's been 3 weeks. That is ok, go ahead and initiate the pinning. If you see your compost colonizing along rapidly, then these few small spots stall out, go ahead and initiate the light cycle.
Humidity Humidifiers are not needed if using the High Mountain compost inside the supplied chamber. This compost puts off enough humidity that it creates a mini rain forest inside. If you see that more than an inch of water has collected in the bottom, pour it off. You may see a lot of condensation and sometimes even small puddles of water on the surface. This is normal, and the mushrooms will absorb this on the 1st flush. Sometimes you will also see a yellowing color of the water. That is a normal indication of the compost metabolizing, basically giving off a waste product from the mycelia.
Air Exchange Do Not Fan. These kits come with pre-drilled holes for air exchange. We have experimented plenty and these holes work fine for proper air exchange. Pick as they fully mature and spores begin to drop.
Colonization Only 1 quart bag of healthy colonized grain is needed, but more can be used. Ten lbs of compost takes about 10-15 days to fully colonize the compost. Times vary according to the speed of the strain, temperature, etc. You are given 1 bag with your kit, and only 1 is needed. We've even seen these kits flush 3 to 5 times before. But, that is an exception. You can also use any other colonized grain such as brown rice/vermiculite, birdseed, wheat grain etc., to spawn these kits. It does not have to be the rye berries we include, any good healthy colonized spawn will work. Just be sure it's healthy and uncontaminated, verify odor is sweet and slightly malt (like old beer).
Contamination As with ANY substrate involved with mushroom growing, this compost can be contaminated with green mold (trichoderma) or other form of bacteria. No mushroom substrate is perfect. They all are susceptible to contamination. We have found rye berries are more resistant to contamination over all other grain substrates we have tried. A lot also has to do with the strain of mushroom being grown. Some strains are more resistant to contamination than others. Some will grow around green mold just fine, and continue to fruit for short periods of time, others will not. Most of the time it's us humans that contaminate our own growing project.
Again, when your kit arrives you should take note that the compost is not green or contaminated. If it turns green later on you, after you started working with it, it is because you or something in your house contaminated it. Keep away from pets, off the carpet, floor etc. Elevate your kit away from the floor because this is where most contaminates are. Always, always, wipe your hands/arms down with alcohol 70%.

Cheech Posted url to picture of Compost bag but it wont come up for some reason...if your interested you can see it here
http://www.highmountaincompost.com/index.php
Edited by futura (04/04/09 04:28 PM)
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13shrooms
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Re: Cheese Grater??? Newbie needs help please!!! [Re: futura]
#10106044 - 04/04/09 04:28 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I use 10-12 cakes (cheese grated) for a 4-5" deep sub(coir/verm/coffee) in my 18 gal mono, takes 2 weeks to colonize and 1 more to flush.
more spawn = faster colonization = less chance of contams = better healthier myc = better flushes. IME.
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futura
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Re: Cheese Grater??? Newbie needs help please!!! [Re: 13shrooms]
#10107820 - 04/04/09 10:50 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
13shrooms said: I use 10-12 cakes (cheese grated) for a 4-5" deep sub(coir/verm/coffee) in my 18 gal mono, takes 2 weeks to colonize and 1 more to flush.
more spawn = faster colonization = less chance of contams = better healthier myc = better flushes. IME.
My tub is aprox 4.5 gallons and 10 lbs of High Mountain Compost is about 5 Quarts. I think im going to partition it and add 5 1/2 pint jars(1 1/4Qts) to 2 1/2 quarts Compost giving me a 1 to 2 ratio and a depth of about 2 to 2 1/2 inches) I will make one Side EQ and one Side cambo and divide by using two plastic bags dividing tub in half to keep myc seperated...Does that seem right??? Will it work???
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just me
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Re: Cheese Grater??? Newbie needs help please!!! [Re: futura]
#10107841 - 04/04/09 10:55 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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to me, sounds like your best plan so far.
if the tub is only 4.5 gallons tho, i think the sub will be deeper than 2"
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13shrooms
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Re: Cheese Grater??? Newbie needs help please!!! [Re: just me]
#10108509 - 04/05/09 01:17 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
if the tub is only 4.5 gallons tho, i think the sub will be deeper than 2"
ditto.
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