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xrommy
portable back garden



Registered: 05/14/06
Posts: 253
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soaking rye or wbs vs not
#10066877 - 03/29/09 02:10 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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couple years ago i stopped soaking/simmering and then waiting for water to drain, started experimenting with skipping these steps for rye and putting 48% water to 52% rye in a patch bag, sealing it and pcing, inoculate next day with same success as when soaked only hours of labor taken out.
same i tried for wbs, and using 1 part water to 2 parts of wbs i achieved bright white bags.
i was just reading some threads and people were still talking about soaking and doing the process, i was just wondering how many people still do this or just skip it?
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jagerbomber444
Stranger



Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 166
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
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Re: soaking rye or wbs vs not [Re: xrommy]
#10066921 - 03/29/09 02:17 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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i think you have been lucky but don't quote me
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xrommy
portable back garden



Registered: 05/14/06
Posts: 253
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how do you mean?
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jagerbomber444
Stranger



Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 166
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
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Re: soaking rye or wbs vs not [Re: xrommy]
#10067054 - 03/29/09 02:33 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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to have not had any contams
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Green2whitethumb
Lumberjack



Registered: 02/27/09
Posts: 533
Loc: Somewhere Over the Rainbo...
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Re: soaking rye or wbs vs not [Re: xrommy]
#10067062 - 03/29/09 02:35 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've read threads where people have great success without the soak and simmer.
On the other hand, endospores can survive PC temps no prob. The soak is to germinate these endospores so they can be eliminated by PC temps. In theory you could have an all white bag of spawn, and get a contam from a newly germinated endospore later in the process.
To each his own, but yeah, the overnight soak and subsequent simmer can be tedious, but I don't mind it. I'm in no hurry.
-------------------- Welcome to Costco.....I love you.
***All communications from this avatar are fictitious and should be treated as such.
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cdubbz111
Psycho for hire



Registered: 01/11/09
Posts: 426
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: soaking rye or wbs vs not [Re: xrommy]
#10067066 - 03/29/09 02:35 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I rinse, then soak for 4-6 hrs then simmer just till it boils, then strain let the grains dry on the surface, and PC then done, never had issues always snowy white, and honestly this is a hobby for me so i enjoy all the laborous tasks, and what works for you most certainly would work for me but wouldnt be enjoyable.
good vibes your way though
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jagerbomber444
Stranger



Registered: 03/20/09
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Re: soaking rye or wbs vs not [Re: cdubbz111]
#10067086 - 03/29/09 02:37 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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good to see i was on the right track with my response
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derx
who run it



Registered: 05/29/03
Posts: 2,459
Loc: dx/dt
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Re: soaking rye or wbs vs not [Re: xrommy]
#10067095 - 03/29/09 02:37 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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use the freaking search button, noob
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jagerbomber444
Stranger



Registered: 03/20/09
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Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
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Re: soaking rye or wbs vs not [Re: derx]
#10067201 - 03/29/09 02:51 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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who are you talking to and why are you being so condescending not very nice
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Doodle
fuck off


Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 1,069
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Ive done it a few times with my rye and just used fahtsters no soak/no simmer tek. for 96 quart jars. Ive never had a problem with it. i stopped soaking all together, i may do it from time to time if I'm in the mood but Ive never had a problem with not doin it, i do like to simmer for 20-45 minutes though.
 those were done with a simmer but no soak. I'm not s firm believer about the endo spores germinating that wont be killed in the PC, i would like to see some proof of this.
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fahtster
Now With 33%More Faht



Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 9,717
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Re: soaking rye or wbs vs not [Re: Doodle]
#10068906 - 03/29/09 06:49 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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yeah, this enodspore/soak thing needs to stop. Something is either sterilized or it's not. If you're getting bacteria in your jars, it's the fault of your sterile technique, not the Pressure cooker.
From the University of Wisconsin... I have a feeling they know what they're talking about... http://lecturer.ukdw.ac.id/dhira/ControlGrowth/sterilization.html pay close attention to table 1.
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Cuban Strain
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Registered: 03/22/09
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Re: soaking rye or wbs vs not [Re: fahtster]
#10069247 - 03/29/09 07:22 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Autoclave and pressure cooker (steam under pressure) 121°C/15 minutes at 15# pressure kills all forms of life including bacterial endospores. The substance being sterilized must be maintained at the effective T for the full time
So according to this table, you only need to pressure cook for 15 min @ 15#.
How long do you pc for fahtster?
-------------------- Knowledge is often mistaken for intelligence. This is like mistaking a cup of milk for a cow.
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Doodle
fuck off


Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 1,069
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Re: soaking rye or wbs vs not [Re: fahtster]
#10069287 - 03/29/09 07:28 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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thanks for the link faht, here is a quote out of the first part of it that i would like most here to see. "Autoclave and pressure cooker (steam under pressure) 121°C/15 minutes at 15# pressure kills all forms of life including bacterial endospores. The substance being sterilized must be maintained at the effective T for the full time" Whether or not if they germinate they are already there in order to be able to germinate, so be sterilizing them you are killing them whether there already germinating or not.
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fahtster
Now With 33%More Faht



Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 9,717
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The 15 minutes is the set standard... I'm not totally sure if it's for a single/smaller amount of endospore(s), but the more endospores per container, the longer you need to cook. If you click "next" on the bottom of the page in that link, it'll take you to the next page that states this.
When I did my pc'ing, I did 1 hour and 10 mins. Which was plenty. And like I've stated before, soaking your grains can prove to work against your intentions of ridding the grains of endospores. Bacteria that form endospores do it whenever they are exposed to harsh environments and they don't just do it once... every single bacteria produces them. You can kill them easier if you catch them right as they are hatching and if you do it in a relatively short amount of time, but bacteria reproduce exponentially and if you don't kill them at the right time, you'll end up with far more endospores than you started with due to the slow heating up of the PC; this will force those new bacterium to form endospores.
A short soak can be used to slightly hydrate and soften the grain so that it takes on water without bursting as easy, but it shouldn't be done with the intent of hatching endospores. At least this is what I paid people thousands of dollars to teach me.... shit better be right. lol
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Green2whitethumb
Lumberjack



Registered: 02/27/09
Posts: 533
Loc: Somewhere Over the Rainbo...
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
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Re: soaking rye or wbs vs not [Re: fahtster]
#10069788 - 03/29/09 08:29 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Damn. And Magash seemed so sure about those damn endospores. I just figured he knew his stuff. I should'nt assume that I guess
-------------------- Welcome to Costco.....I love you.
***All communications from this avatar are fictitious and should be treated as such.
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fahtster
Now With 33%More Faht



Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 9,717
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I guarantee some people will still say it's not true. Probably due entirely to coincidence too. people make prints and there's a few bacteria on the print or a bad LC or they flamed the tip of the syringe and then wiped it with an alcohol swab (alcohol doesn't kill endospores and a wide variety of living/hatched bacteria) or there's a breech in the lid and any number of faulty sterile techniques... then it's the one time that they didn't soak the grain and instantly the contamination is blamed on the not soaking and it's spread like that.
That's why I developed my lids/cloning machine etc... my shit was on lock down. lol And even if I did get a contamination, if you watch the jars close enough, at the first sign of contams I'd just rePC and inoculate with a different master.
Edited by fahtster (03/29/09 08:46 PM)
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: soaking rye or wbs vs not [Re: fahtster]
#10070003 - 03/29/09 08:58 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
fahtster said: yeah, this enodspore/soak thing needs to stop. Something is either sterilized or it's not. If you're getting bacteria in your jars, it's the fault of your sterile technique, not the Pressure cooker.
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Quick WBS Prep
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Doodle
fuck off


Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 1,069
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Re: soaking rye or wbs vs not [Re: FooMan]
#10070077 - 03/29/09 09:06 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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well thats two trusted cultivators that i have seen great things from. i think soaking is out of the picture for good for me from now on.
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fahtster
Now With 33%More Faht



Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 9,717
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Re: soaking rye or wbs vs not [Re: Doodle]
#10070160 - 03/29/09 09:17 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah, I never got the 99.999% of bacteria is killed, but there's that small percent that make it.
That's like saying if you put 500 little cute bunnies in your oven and turn it on 450F for twenty minutes, after you open it up, all are dead except for two super bunny fuckers that come flying out like, "what bitch?!" "yeah, that's right, we're super bunnies! And we're going to make a lot of super bunnies and eat all your carrots when you're not looking!!!"
little fuckers.
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derx
who run it



Registered: 05/29/03
Posts: 2,459
Loc: dx/dt
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Re: soaking rye or wbs vs not [Re: fahtster]
#10070250 - 03/29/09 09:25 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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