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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Kickle]
    #10058724 - 03/28/09 07:13 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for all the great responses. :thumbup: For me this was an interesting debate.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,761
Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10058893 - 03/28/09 08:30 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:...
Here's what I found very interesting. When he became depressed he wasn't just sad. He said he could see "through" everything. society was a sham, people were all phony and lying about all kinds of things, most all the things he cared about seemed alien and stupid. Life seemed like a bad dumb joke the way it was being lived. ....




emotion does the same kind of thing that psychedelic does:
at both ends of the spectrum, happy or sad.

vision (all senses) and memory patterns persist longer.

you get emotional and then you see people, and the memories of them - sometimes wearing other masks, and this resolves clownishly contradictorily - associative memory can seem arbitrary or can operate to retrieve antithetical content especially under pressure.

so you see paradox, theatre, phoniness, voidness, and you try to "make sense" or make new connections between the layered images/memories and it all comes up as unsatisfactory - this is 100% normal.
(aka. dhukka & sangsara)

what happens with our layered experiences is related to set and setting, but
arriving at this kind of fugue a few times makes it a familiar habit, or cognitive direction and that sets the mode of dreaming for the person, invading emotion, psychedelics, and all aspects of life.

often the detection of theme and anti-theme is a mission or art-form; and it becomes part of the identity and self image of the person.

the antidepressants kind of establish a continuity of mood, which dampens the likelihood of going emotional (getting stoned-layered) but it is only of use as temporary relief, or as a tool to help address cognitive habits (therapy).


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
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Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10058906 - 03/28/09 08:34 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Oh yeah...Zoloft inhibits serotonin production in the body and clinical trials determined that it was ineffective in the treatment of depression. Patients are also at increased risk of suicide while taking it. What I know of serotonin tells me that inhibition of it could lead to depression.




Sertraline (Zoloft) is effective for certain types of depression. For most people it doesn't work, but when it does work, it works well. We also can't identify if someone will respond to sertraline until we try it. Same with venlafaxine. There's a new antidepressant coming out in the next few years that will blow all these ones out of the water in terms of efficacy and greatly reduced side effects. I think it'll make all other antidepressants obsolete.

Failing that, there's always the last resort treatment for depression: electro-convulsive therapy. It's amazingly effective. Nothing else comes close. It has one pretty bad side effect though, amnesia.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: redgreenvines]
    #10059018 - 03/28/09 09:05 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Icelander said:...
Here's what I found very interesting. When he became depressed he wasn't just sad. He said he could see "through" everything. society was a sham, people were all phony and lying about all kinds of things, most all the things he cared about seemed alien and stupid. Life seemed like a bad dumb joke the way it was being lived. ....




emotion does the same kind of thing that psychedelic does:
at both ends of the spectrum, happy or sad.

vision (all senses) and memory patterns persist longer.

you get emotional and then you see people, and the memories of them - sometimes wearing other masks, and this resolves clownishly contradictorily - associative memory can seem arbitrary or can operate to retrieve antithetical content especially under pressure.

so you see paradox, theatre, phoniness, voidness, and you try to "make sense" or make new connections between the layered images/memories and it all comes up as unsatisfactory - this is 100% normal.
(aka. dhukka & sangsara)

what happens with our layered experiences is related to set and setting, but
arriving at this kind of fugue a few times makes it a familiar habit, or cognitive direction and that sets the mode of dreaming for the person, invading emotion, psychedelics, and all aspects of life.

often the detection of theme and anti-theme is a mission or art-form; and it becomes part of the identity and self image of the person.

the antidepressants kind of establish a continuity of mood, which dampens the likelihood of going emotional (getting stoned-layered) but it is only of use as temporary relief, or as a tool to help address cognitive habits (therapy).





Great post.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: zouden]
    #10059022 - 03/28/09 09:07 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

It has one pretty bad side effect though, amnesia.

Is it total? When will I be able to try it?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10061044 - 03/28/09 05:12 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Actually my origional question in my mind was about if depression gives one a clearer picture of our entrapment in culture or it is a basic unrealistic stance.




OK. I can handle that.
Answer:
It does not give a clearer picture. It is just another way to distort the picture by changing the emphasis. There is NO clear picture. Our moods and attitudes always distort the picture. It is impossible to be objective. Subjectivity is all we have. Is long term depression normal? No. Having any constant mood persist long term with no change is abnormal. This would lead me to decide that these people had become irrational, and their judgment was no longer trustworthy.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: zouden]
    #10061049 - 03/28/09 05:15 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

There's a new antidepressant coming out in the next few years that will blow all these ones out of the water in terms of efficacy and greatly reduced side effects. I think it'll make all other antidepressants obsolete.




Drugs are for emergency management of course. The long term solution is to learn to live a balanced life. treating the symptom just suppresses the symptom and does not address the cause.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10061158 - 03/28/09 05:40 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

If you postpone long enough, you never have to deal with the symptoms. :cool:


--------------------


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Offlinezouden
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Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10061238 - 03/28/09 05:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:

There's a new antidepressant coming out in the next few years that will blow all these ones out of the water in terms of efficacy and greatly reduced side effects. I think it'll make all other antidepressants obsolete.




Drugs are for emergency management of course. The long term solution is to learn to live a balanced life. treating the symptom just suppresses the symptom and does not address the cause.




Generally, yes, but in this case it's more complicated than that. The new drug might actually treat the root cause. I can't say much more until we publish our results. I'm starting a new, very big experiment next week which might shed some light on the subject :awesome:

We didn't invent the drug, btw. We just discovered how it works, quite accidentally :smile:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10062175 - 03/28/09 08:16 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I recently read a book about a guy with severe depression that started out of the blue one day when he was a kid. One day he was fine, had a supportive and loving family and friends and then in a moment a cloud of depression desended that lasted well into adulthood.

Here's what I found very interesting. When he became depressed he wasn't just sad. He said he could see "through" everything. society was a sham, people were all phony and lying about all kinds of things, most all the things he cared about seemed alien and stupid. Life seemed like a bad dumb joke the way it was being lived.

Now what do you think about that? Was he delusional in his depression or was he maybe getting a more accurate look at reality without the mental shields or distractions of what we "do"?

Please discuss.




Wihtout reading anyone's answer, the first thing that sprang to my mind was the Dead Sea.  It is dead and lifeless because it doesn't give out, it only takes in.

Hope that helps.


--------------------


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OfflineTeamAmerica
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10062264 - 03/28/09 08:32 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Life is not all about being happy goddamnit


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10062308 - 03/28/09 08:40 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Sounds like he suffered "derealization" along with depression.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10062344 - 03/28/09 08:46 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I don't buy that 'neurochemical imbalances' cause depression, and apparently, there wasn't enough proof of this theory to keep the Zoloft commercials on the air.

What, you think they just disappeared without reason? :nono:




For real?  There is an ungodly amount of evidence of neurochemical correlations to depression and all mind states.  All mind states have a physical correlate, which is to say that while we can't infer causation in either direction, we know there is a relation.  Chemical imbalances can make you depressed, and a depressed mind state can cause your to manifest certain chemical levels. 

Basically, if you experience something, your brain is moving in some fashion.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #10062941 - 03/28/09 10:19 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

correlations yes
cause and effect not so well explained.

morning sun in east was known for centuries before the spinning of the earth was accepted as the cause rather than the encirclement of our planet by the unlikely transit of the much larger star.

brain chemistry understanding is like our celestial understanding 800 years ago.

so far
all we have are correlations and tampering related to chemical imbalances, very little about cause and effect is understood when it comes to states of mind, mood, memory etc.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #10062951 - 03/28/09 10:21 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

jonathanseagull said:
Quote:

Poid said:
I don't buy that 'neurochemical imbalances' cause depression, and apparently, there wasn't enough proof of this theory to keep the Zoloft commercials on the air.

What, you think they just disappeared without reason? :nono:




For real?  There is an ungodly amount of evidence of neurochemical correlations to depression and all mind states.  All mind states have a physical correlate, which is to say that while we can't infer causation in either direction, we know there is a relation.  Chemical imbalances can make you depressed, and a depressed mind state can cause your to manifest certain chemical levels. 

Basically, if you experience something, your brain is moving in some fashion.




For real. I find it absurd to opine that consciousness is ruled by chemicals.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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