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OfflineSynesthetic
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Interesting thoughts today...
    #10058581 - 03/28/09 05:54 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

How could something evolve into an organism that has the ability to go against any natural instinct, any primal drive, and behave in ways detrimental to its own survival and reproduction as well as its peers'?

Interesting thought of the day, I guess.

Also, are are thoughts manifestations of chemical reactions in our brain, or do our thoughts orchestrate these chemical reactions to communicate with the body?

Is it possible that we all think the same way, it's just that some people's brains don't know how to communicate to the body properly?

One last one.

Everything you know is wrong can't be true, because then you'd know that you knew you were wrong. It turns into circular logic.

Everything you know is right can't be true because then you could say "I know everything I know is right, therefore everything I know is right." Once again, circular logic. Therefore, false.

Some things I know are true, some things I know are wrong. Well, if this statement is true, then knowing something doesn't seem to have any affect on something being true or false. But wait, doesn't the word "to know" mean to accept something as true? Uh-oh, kids. This one doesn't check out either.

Therefore, I know nothing.

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InvisibleMastamike1118
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Re: Interesting thoughts today... [Re: Synesthetic]
    #10058596 - 03/28/09 06:05 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

i know what im not

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Interesting thoughts today... [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10058843 - 03/28/09 08:12 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

not evolution
illness
koyanaskaatsi


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Interesting thoughts today... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #10059024 - 03/28/09 09:09 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

so it is.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Interesting thoughts today... [Re: Icelander]
    #10059561 - 03/28/09 11:27 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

these are good things to ponder

as for the first point,

what organism are you talking about? Humans are influenced by instinct all the time.. sometimes by competing instincts. For most of our time on earth, we were probably working towards our survival because.. well.. we are still around today!


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Offlinenumonkei
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Re: Interesting thoughts today... [Re: Synesthetic]
    #10059624 - 03/28/09 11:42 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Everything you know is right can't be true because then you could say "I know everything I know is right, therefore everything I know is right." Once again, circular logic. Therefore, false.




This one reminds me of how many less-informed fundamentalist monotheistic religious folk attempt to justify the inherent 'truthness' of their system of belief of choice.



~Monk

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OfflineRedrawing
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Re: Interesting thoughts today... [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10059697 - 03/28/09 12:00 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
these are good things to ponder

as for the first point,

what organism are you talking about? Humans are influenced by instinct all the time.. sometimes by competing instincts. For most of our time on earth, we were probably working towards our survival because.. well.. we are still around today!




I agree. I think many people overestimate the extent to which humans are not bound to their primal drives. In fact, I would say we cannot escape them at all. It's part of the reason the world is the mess it is.


--------------------


I'm an insect who dreamt he was a man and loved it, but now that dream is over and the insect is awake

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Interesting thoughts today... [Re: Redrawing]
    #10059705 - 03/28/09 12:02 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineSynesthetic
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Re: Interesting thoughts today... [Re: Icelander]
    #10059927 - 03/28/09 12:58 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Yet people can, and do, act in ways that don't satisfy basic, primal drives.

Best example I can think of right now is art. Some artists will go without food, sleep, water, and sex while they work on a piece. They are consciously denying all of their survival and reproductive drives and using all of that energy to do something that, in the end, gives them no evolutionary advantage.

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Offlinenumonkei
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Re: Interesting thoughts today... [Re: Synesthetic]
    #10060039 - 03/28/09 01:23 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

The evolution of culture is, anthropologically speaking, one of the primal differences between human the modern and socialized homo sapien and other animals/mammals.

This culture is often responsible for creating context, and communication that makes us act against our instincts and be able to contemplate the context and possible consequences/extrapolations of these deviations from what would otherwise be 'instinct'.

But then again, I'm not too familiar with how the 'instinct deviation' I've very vaguely defined/outlined above has been studied in other primates, ect. But this is an interesting point, and topic.

:smile: It's nice to be back. I forgot how much intelligent thought can be found in this forum.



~Monk

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Interesting thoughts today... [Re: numonkei]
    #10060139 - 03/28/09 01:51 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I forgot how much intelligent thought can be found in this forum.



That's true. I rarely get into discussions with content/intent out on the street.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineRedrawing
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Re: Interesting thoughts today... [Re: Synesthetic]
    #10060362 - 03/28/09 02:51 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Synesthetic said:
Yet people can, and do, act in ways that don't satisfy basic, primal drives.

Best example I can think of right now is art. Some artists will go without food, sleep, water, and sex while they work on a piece. They are consciously denying all of their survival and reproductive drives and using all of that energy to do something that, in the end, gives them no evolutionary advantage.




But there is a primal urge driving that artist. Just because they ignore some basic necessities doesn't mean they aren't fighting for others. There are plenty of cases of animals who will similarly disregard physical safety for some (perceived) cause or effect. And the root of that cause/effect is some primal urge--the will to power, perhaps? Artists are seeking power with their art, to elevate themselves above their basic physical existence. Or perhaps they see the art as a means to end (of sex? food? shelter?) The actions can still be reduced to a primal instinctual drive.

I think our rational cognitive faculties may muddle it all up, but at the core of every action there is a motive reconcilable with primal drives.


--------------------


I'm an insect who dreamt he was a man and loved it, but now that dream is over and the insect is awake

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OfflineSynesthetic
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Re: Interesting thoughts today... [Re: Redrawing]
    #10061532 - 03/28/09 06:45 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Redrawing said:
Quote:

Synesthetic said:
Yet people can, and do, act in ways that don't satisfy basic, primal drives.

Best example I can think of right now is art. Some artists will go without food, sleep, water, and sex while they work on a piece. They are consciously denying all of their survival and reproductive drives and using all of that energy to do something that, in the end, gives them no evolutionary advantage.




But there is a primal urge driving that artist. Just because they ignore some basic necessities doesn't mean they aren't fighting for others. There are plenty of cases of animals who will similarly disregard physical safety for some (perceived) cause or effect. And the root of that cause/effect is some primal urge--the will to power, perhaps? Artists are seeking power with their art, to elevate themselves above their basic physical existence. Or perhaps they see the art as a means to end (of sex? food? shelter?) The actions can still be reduced to a primal instinctual drive.

I think our rational cognitive faculties may muddle it all up, but at the core of every action there is a motive reconcilable with primal drives.




You have a point, but an animal won't knowingly go without sustenance to exhibit some strange behavior. Food, water, sex, and sleep always come before anything else in the animal kingdom.

I've known artists. There are a lot of them out there who aren't hoping to gain power or money for their work. These are people like Beethoven, who continued writing music even after he lost his hearing because he defined himself by his work. What other species would go to such lengths just for the sake of an identity?

And what about the people out there who have been so fucked over by society that they commit suicide or go on a shooting spree? This isn't something that happens with other animals. In fact, no other animal will willingly take its own life (except lemmings, those weird little creatures that run off a cliff every year. Even then, though, they don't do it because life sucks. They do it because the ones that are smart enough not to jump or strong enough to survive the fall and swim to safety are the strongest of the species).

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Interesting thoughts today... [Re: Synesthetic]
    #10061716 - 03/28/09 07:08 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

"How could something evolve into an organism that has the ability to go against any natural instinct, any primal drive, and behave in ways detrimental to its own survival and reproduction as well as its peers'?"

I think it has to do with our wild imaginations, which IMO make us a unique species.



"Some things I know are true, some things I know are wrong. Well, if this statement is true, then knowing something doesn't seem to have any affect on something being true or false. But wait, doesn't the word "to know" mean to accept something as true? Uh-oh, kids. This one doesn't check out either."

If you "know" something that isn't true, it is called being deluded.



"Also, are are thoughts manifestations of chemical reactions in our brain, or do our thoughts orchestrate these chemical reactions to communicate with the body?"

I personally don't buy the biochemical model of the brain, but if I were to take a stab at this, I would say it's our thoughts that orchestrate these chemical reactions.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineSynesthetic
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Re: Interesting thoughts today... [Re: Poid]
    #10061986 - 03/28/09 07:48 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Me too. I think conscious thought and insight are too complex, even for the complexity of the brain. Hell, our brains aren't that different from other primates' and even specially-bred mice, yet you don't see them trying to paint portraits or getting ready to jam on the guitar.

Which makes me wonder...if someone's clinically "brain-dead", what if they ARE still thinking, and are just prisoners in their own bodies?

That's a scary thought, really.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Interesting thoughts today... [Re: Synesthetic]
    #10062088 - 03/28/09 08:03 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

It makes one ponder the question, "What is life?". :sadyes:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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