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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Discontinuous Models
    #1006199 - 10/30/02 01:48 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

One of my big arguments concerning many of the theories espoused here is the fact that they are discontinuous. (The other being that they are not internally consistent, even if one agrees to suspend disbelief and temporarily accept the basic assumptions, but that is for another thread.)

For example, a fit young man perhaps can run the mile in 6:30. As he ages and grows heavier, his time decreases. When his arteries harden and he becomes diabetic and obese, he may be lucky to be able to even walk a mile. There is no magical point where he becomes so out of shape and ill that suddenly he can run a sub 4 minute mile. It just doesn't follow. No one will argue this point with me. (I don't think!)

But with consciousness, many here readily accept a discontinous model. As the young man grows older, he becomes more forgetful and finds it harder to make associations and do deep mental calculations. Learning becomes more difficult. As his brain deteriorates and Alzheimers develops, he becomes less and less aware of his surroundings. His consciousness decreases to the point where he may even fail to recognize those he loves. His world shrinks dramatically. Yet somehow when this deterioration in consciousness is complete (death), his consciousness suddenly expands to encompass the entire cosmos.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineCosmic_Monkey
PongidaeKosmikos

Registered: 08/06/02
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Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: Swami]
    #1006241 - 10/30/02 01:55 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Your whole veiw seems to cling to that which is physical. I understand this can work either way but, aren't people who say there definately isn't a god just being close minded? Why say something isn't a possibility if you really just can't prove it isn't?


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
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Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: Swami]
    #1006285 - 10/30/02 02:05 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

haha, i never thought of it like that. you raise a very good point. perhaps your ego is what goes when your old, not your consciousness.


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Anonymous

Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: Swami]
    #1006297 - 10/30/02 02:08 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I've missed your posts Swami.. thanks for giving me something to think about. Where have you been, anyway?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: Cosmic_Monkey]
    #1006304 - 10/30/02 02:10 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Your whole veiw seems to cling to that which is physical.
Clinging is an emotional stance and is not relevant. My world view is based on what is observable.

I understand this can work either way but, aren't people who say there definately isn't a god just being close minded?
Seems you are responding to something that I did not write. Classic discontinuity in action.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMajor_Buzz
just like that

Registered: 02/14/02
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Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: Swami]
    #1006324 - 10/30/02 02:16 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

There are many reports of people dieing a clinical death and later coming back to life. If my memory serves me correct, the reports tend to be very similar. They have reported seeing a bright white light and sense being drawn into it.

Swami, how would you refute these reports?


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/02
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Loc: Toronto Canada
Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: Swami]
    #1006441 - 10/30/02 02:51 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

It seems to me that as long as a person is identified with the physical realm that it would only be natural that his regular egoistic conciousness would suffer the indignities foisted upon it through the demise and collapse of the physical organism. However, if the person has transcended egoistic subject/object relative conciousness and resides in pure love/conciousness/bliss then one would be beyond the mental decrepitude generally asociated with the passing of time

      If that person has found and identified(through whatever means) with that part within that is beyond time, pure conciousness, now being defined as the "bare power to be aware" which resides in all of us, they would be quite beyond hunger/pain/degenerative mental affliction....

In fact it is the underlying thread, this bare POWER to BE aware that binds the entire universe together but can never be seen itself through normal waking ego conciousness. It sustains US as living breathing corporeal entities as surely as it does the clearly observable universe which you are using to define the ultimate nature of reality...

That such a state exists (and the fact that i is infinitely superior to egoistic conciousness) has been testified to by many......

It's a kind of knowing best (i feel ) described in Merill-wolf's term "knowledge through identity", you either come to know all the love/wisdom of the universe through direct experience, which requires the total (annihilatioon of ego conciousness), or not at all.......

I realize there is really no point in trying to convince someone that anything i have said above is true. It is equally futile for one who has never directly experienced their inner being that it in fact does not contain the greater reality value......

.....btw Swamster, just in reference to one of your other threads, it's true that if you were to throw one of your "objective reality" bricks(in rl) at someone who had become aware of their own divine nature,(and who was then residing in that state) at the time of what i'm sure would be considerable impact :wink: , that the force of the brick might indeed knock them over, but they wouldn't actually feel the pain in the regular way because they had already identified with THAT within them that is eternal and totaly beyond the ravages of time........including, yes! Even one of your objective reality bricks

      But on the level you are are basing your beliefs/assumptions about the nature of reality, the physically observable universe, you are correct(i believe) in all that you say......but when one finds that eternal element within and knows THAT to be his/her own true nature the observable universe ceases to exist.....

it is still physically VISIBLE through the mechanism of the eyes, but it no longer has any effect as the person in such a transcendant state is no longer bound by the physical nor the physical laws that seem to rule there........now it's back to OTD avec moi, nice to see your posts return to S & P.....from the level you're on, i really don't envy anyone that tries to argue with you, sincerely.....  :grin: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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OfflineCosmic_Monkey
PongidaeKosmikos

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Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: Swami]
    #1006468 - 10/30/02 02:56 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

cling (kling) v., clung, cling?ing, n.? v.i.1. to adhere closely; stick to: Wet paper clings to glass.
Emotional paper?

In reply to:

Yet somehow when this deterioration in consciousness is complete (death), his consciousness suddenly expands to encompass the entire cosmos.




Isn't it possible to surmise that your saying there is nothing beyond our physical existence?




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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: Major_Buzz]
    #1006483 - 10/30/02 03:03 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

There are a large number of hellish reports that are not in the popular books as they do not support the premise of the authors.

I don't refute someone's report, but the experience of a living being can hardly describe the experience of a non-living being, if any. Being clinically misdiagnosed as dead, is not the same as being dead.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1006528 - 10/30/02 03:17 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

It seems to me that as long as a person is identified with the physical realm that it would only be natural that his regular egoistic conciousness would suffer the indignities foisted upon it through the demise and collapse of the physical organism.
You are not part of the physical realm? Do you not eat, sleep defecate, lust, etc.? This realm is readily identifiable. Any other realm is hyerpbole.

However, if the person has transcended egoistic subject/object relative conciousness and resides in pure love/conciousness/bliss then one would be beyond the mental decrepitude generally asociated with the passing of time
Have you transcended and are speaking of yourself? If not your IFs are pure speculation based on wish fulfillment.

In fact it is the underlying thread, this bare POWER to BE aware that binds the entire universe together but can never be seen itself through normal waking ego conciousness.
In fact? No. In your opinion.

It sustains US as living breathing corporeal entities as surely as it does the clearly observable universe which you are using to define the ultimate nature of reality...
I made no attempt to define any ultimate reality.

That such a state exists (and the fact that i is infinitely superior to egoistic conciousness) has been testified to by many......
Stories mean little to me if I can not also attain such a state.

.....btw Swamster, just in reference to one of your other threads, it's true that if you were to throw one of your "objective reality" bricks(in rl) at someone who had become aware of their own divine nature,(and who was then residing in that state) at the time of what i'm sure would be considerable impact , that the force of the brick might indeed knock them over, but they wouldn't actually feel the pain in the regular way because they had already identified with THAT within them that is eternal and totaly beyond the ravages of time........including, yes! Even one of your objective reality bricks.
Here you go again with pure speculation. If the Bible is remotely accurate, Jesus beld and died by an objective reality nail. Ghandi and King died from objective reality bullets, the same as any other human.

But on the level you are are basing your beliefs/assumptions about the nature of reality, the physically observable universe, you are correct(i believe) in all that you say......but when one finds that eternal element within and knows THAT to be his/her own true nature the observable universe ceases to exist.....
What assumption have I made? The effects I have described are observable and not based on my belief.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Registered: 06/06/02
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Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: Swami]
    #1006616 - 10/30/02 03:42 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

"You are not part of the physical realm? Do you not eat, sleep defecate, lust, etc.? This realm is readily identifiable. Any other realm is hyerpbole."

At present, yes to all of the above. However i found that while immersed in the Divinity, that i had absolutely no desire for food or water(this lasted @ 7 days) and with no deleterious FX to the organism or my energy level........as for the lust factor, again no......but i had no female companionship at the time and anything i say would be mere speculation

"Have you transcended and are speaking of yourself? If not your IFs are pure speculation based on wish fulfillment."

Yes. The fact that i am not currently immersed(a valid word, since it's depth is greater than any physical ocean) of my own divinity which also resides within the heart of everyone is no more a testament to it's delusional nature that going to London England, returning to Canada, and saying that London no longer existed, negates the actual existence of London

"In fact? No. In your opinion."
Granted, but so are the conclusions you have reached by positing ultimate reality value to observable reality........IMO  :grin:

"Stories mean little to me if I can not also attain such a state."

It can be very difficult(but not impossible) to achieve this state, or anything else, if you do not at least admit the "possibility" that it exists within your current reality structure

"Here you go again with pure speculation. If the Bible is remotely accurate, Jesus beld and died by an objective reality nail. Ghandi and King died from objective reality bullets, the same as any other human"

In this case Swami, it isn't specualtive. Partially due to the fact that i had lost touch with my physical being, i managed to (yes, part of the individual man does share in the Divine experience) get injured a couple of times. All i can testify as that both times, the injuries were of such a nature that i would have yowled in pain. However, i couldn't feel the pain as i was no longer IDENTIFIED with the physical. Yes i was still encased in a corporeal shell, but i had been freed from attatchment and identification with it

"What assumption have I made? The effects I have described are observable and not based on my belief"

Yes but your assumptions about reality are based around your belief that what is observalble(to you, as well as generally) yields a reality value that blows the reality of any type of "reaized conciousness" out of the water.....that is my own interpretation of course










 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



Edited by FreakQlibrium (10/30/02 05:00 PM)


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Invisiblemr crisper
.

Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: Swami]
    #1006804 - 10/30/02 04:39 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

As he ages and grows heavier, his time decreases



i would've assumed his time increases and speed decreases.

In reply to:

Yet somehow when this deterioration in consciousness is complete (death), his consciousness suddenly expands to encompass the entire cosmos



whoever claimed such a thing? cosmic consciousness directly upon leaving the meat? why do you make this assumption?

btw - my great uncle just earned his phd at the age of 92, was in the newspaper last sunday. going by your uuuuh logic, imagine how smart he must've been 60 years ago.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
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Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: Swami]
    #1006883 - 10/30/02 04:56 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Use the analogy of a small bubble near the bottom of the ocean. As the bubble ages (rises) it grows bigger and bigger until it finally breaks the surface of the water and dies. The gas that was inside of the bubble merges into the atmosphere and "lives on" even though the bubble is no more.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
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Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: Seuss]
    #1007051 - 10/30/02 05:50 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

thats what im saying, your ego dies, not your consciousness.


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Anonymous

Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: Swami]
    #1007126 - 10/30/02 06:23 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Clearly you are forgetting quantum mechanics which has shown evidence of an afterlife. Each of us creates our own reality and in doing so are able to mind-meld into other dimensions. This is incontrovertible. If it wern't the case I would not be typing this right now. You are also forgetting the chakra thingy. Most of the archetypes evoke the classic syllogism between this reality or Reality and cannot be conferred by merely pointing out the errors in the military-industrial complex. This is where you go a-rye. The first thing we have to come to grips with is our own existence. Speaking of which, yours is suspect.

Now, the question is, "Is existence real?" If it is not, where can I buy a good steak?

We need to build upon these basic truths or Truths in order to establish a clearer understanding of the fundamental dynamic by which the paradigm evidences itself. After that we probe until we find some kind of something that we can claim to be true or hope that it is true or at least something that someone can mention to a friend. After that, the rest is easy.

I understand what you are saying but I find your syntax offensive and your use of the word 'the' insulting. Please don't tell me we have another person who needs to learn what the meaning of the word 'is' is!

Probably the best we can hope for is to scratch this entire thread and start over. Next time try to include some mathematical equations to back up your claims.

Thanks,


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: ]
    #1007163 - 10/30/02 06:45 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

Clearly you are forgetting quantum mechanics which has shown evidence of an afterlife. Each of us creates our own reality and in doing so are able to mind-meld into other dimensions. This is incontrovertible. If it wern't the case I would not be typing this right now. You are also forgetting the chakra thingy. Most of the archetypes evoke the classic syllogism between this reality or Reality and cannot be conferred by merely pointing out the errors in the military-industrial complex. This is where you go a-rye.



Huh? What proof brings you to these conclusions, what kind of rye and how long has it been aged?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: Swami]
    #1007166 - 10/30/02 06:46 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Swami,

You've brought up some interesting points, but I must disagree with you  :frown::

As the young man gets older and his physical body starts to decay, the mind does not, in my opinion. I think the consciousness starts getting subdued in order to assist the un/subconscious in coming out - I can certainly say I can't think very well about existence and "truth" and so on while I'm on the phone at work or having a conversation with a teacher. IMO Old people seem detached and disconnected because they're simply "used" to the external world and spend way more time simply processing information that is strictly important to THEM and not anybody else...... My grandfather, for instance, is 86 years old and I've had discussions with him about what he does while he's just hanging around all the time. He thinks and sleeps. I asked what he thinks about and he replied "Everything." and listed off a handful of examples including the future of his family, the future of this country, comparisons between past and future, death, and so on... By not going out and "doing things" all the time like he used to do, by slipping into a physical routine of doing the exact same things every day, he gets to spend more time in his brain than most of us.

I guess as you get older you start realizing on higher and higher levels the subjectivity of everything, and spend more time thinking instead of things like partying, communicating with others, watching movies and such....

It may appear that old people are "really losing it," but its my opinion that as you approach death you're merely preparing to hatch out of your body and into something completely different - and from what all of us living people know, the only thing that its even REMOTELY possible for you to take with you would be pure information.

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
but of course this is all just my opinion....... i'm pretty wild sometimes ;-)


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: Swami]
    #1007254 - 10/30/02 07:17 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Swami:


Are you suggesting that consciousness is computational?

Do you think that we are able to understand consciousness with our current understanding of the world - without a paradigm shift in physics?

Do you consider it is reproducible under the current paradigm?


I don't mean you imply these, I ask your opinion, if I may.

Edit: well, maybe these are implied... are they?


Edited by raytrace (10/30/02 07:27 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: Seuss]
    #1007500 - 10/30/02 08:36 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

As the bubble ages (rises) it grows bigger and bigger until it finally breaks the surface of the water and dies.

Note that your bubble analagy is a CONTINUOUS model. The bubble expands on the way up until the final expansion as the containing medium shifts density. Try another example.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
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Re: Discontinuous Models [Re: Swami]
    #1007510 - 10/30/02 08:39 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Note that your bubble analagy is a CONTINUOUS model

That is the point I was trying to make.  :smile:  Continuous from our viewpoint, but discontinuous from the bubbles viewpoint (or other bubbles observing this bubble).


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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