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Invisibledaytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
To those who gather under billboards...
    #10054327 - 03/27/09 03:06 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I just can't help myself.

This may also be taken as a joint response to the thread "Believing in imaginary entities as a human advancement", but I just can't help myself.

Quote:


LOGOS:

Heraclitus established the term in Western philosophy as meaning both the source and fundamental order of the cosmos. The sophists used the term to mean discourse, and Aristotle applied the term to rational discourse. The Stoic philosophers identified the term with the divine animating principle pervading the universe. After Judaism came under Hellenistic influence, Philo adopted the term into Jewish philosophy. The Gospel of John identifies Jesus as the incarnation of the Logos, through which all things are made. The gospel further identifies the Logos as divine (theos).[1] Second-century Christian Apologists, such as Justin Martyr, identified Jesus as the Logos or Word of God, a distinct intermediary between God and the world.[2]




Whatever one's conception of reality is, it is referential, and ultimately to an imaginary entity of observance (i.e the self). This human concept has been incredibly useful, as this short passage I stole from Wikipedia describes. It has been transposed and expanded to become elaborate concepts of God, Science ("logic" is etymologically derived from the Greek Logos), and discourse.

Logos is a representation of the human drive. Conception as a concept.

But unfortunately, it is not so simple. Although it has been proven useful, philosophically speaking, what is useful in the past is typically the delusions that we are reconciliation in the present. I think it was well put by Wittgenstein as being "bewitched by language". This humane notion of self, self-referential consciousness has proven useful, but this use is only constituent to an illusionary reference point, the self. Essentially, what we did was blindly and arbitrarily launch ourselves the assumedly pre-existing moment, and from the ripples of our effect, constructed a so called "science" from this. There was no specified direction to our original momentum, no reason, no "why", but we have become increasingly effecient at describing how our arbitrary (self based) creation works (causality).

Quote:

His own commitment to the ideal aspect of meaning, and all intentions of consciousness, in expression, precludes the idea that meaning depends on the presence of the object meant. In this way, Husserl undermines his own suggestion that 'intuitive cognitions' fulfill meaning. The meaning of an object cannot be fulfilled by the empirical acts of the intuitive cognition, because Husserl regards the objects of meaning as what goes beyond the intuition of objects. Meanings are ideal; intuitions are empirical.

The way in which meaning excludes the intuition of the object must refer to the 'I' of consciousness. A contradiction is created, because the 'I' refers to itself, refers to itself as referring, and does not refer to anything.

Taken from Barry Stocker's interpretation of Derrida's "Supplement of Origin"





So what is science if there is really no virtue in hypothesis? We blindly fabricate our logos, our conceptions of the universe, and instead on our virtue of poor memory, we "mistake" this as describing the universe itself. The original, blind hypothesis can only prescribe a synthetic technological drive, which we may appropriately consider the actual form of science and logic.

They are fundamentally useful, nothing more. The reason it has always seemed ridiculous to acknowledge any danger in science, is because it so typically falls into the rhetoric. But if we question the basis of this usefulness, we realize that we never had real control over our technology.

The science of our language; my own impulse, a logos of "discourse" is no different. In face of our elaborate circle of definitions that is our language, we typically forget the bare irrationality that this was originally founded upon; the arbitrary game of name and form. The dictionary binds us by these rules, and denies subsequent experience of reality. The original connection is forgotten, ideology is sublimated, in preference to a referential or "dictionary" reality. (Dictio, from latin; the word).

The dictionary dictates.

In our postmodern era, we have finally begun to recognize "reason" for what it is. It is really only a "realistic" as an effort to reconcile the delusions we have previously created for ourselves (through reason). We can build structures, but now it is recognized that it only makes sense to deconstruct. This is our rise and endless fall from animalism. It is the negative aspect of our language, a vast proliferation of the negative or non-existent self.

So whats the "problem"?

Our basic situation is absurd. Without our leap of faith, there is no self, no God, and no basis for reason. Yet we find "use" (as a reference to self) in this leap of faith, whether it be peace of mind, or invention. But again, I ask if this is actually a reason to leap? No, there is no reason to reason.

The logos is well represented as a large circle with a singularity imposed in the middle. The point represents whatever the reference point of phenomenology that makes our logos useful, which I have been describing.

I can't find such an "original" representation through the free and useful service provided by google images. Wonder why? Give it a try, type "logos" into google images or "logos representation", and see what comes up.



YUM!

Well I can't say that I am any more noble with my own concepts. There is no getting around it, I am rhetorically manipulating your thoughts to get an effect. So I won't doubt that there is a use value to this. This is the rhetorical authority to my words. I post here at the shroomery to develop my ideas, for fun, and admittedly to blow off some steam once in a while.

But here is the logos I am trying to represent. If its hard to see, sorry. The middle reference point is labeled "self". I just can't help myself...



:heresjohnny:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: To those who gather under billboards... [Re: daytripper23]
    #10054445 - 03/27/09 03:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Fuck man, that is an amazing post. You are my new guru. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineRedrawing
Psychonaut


Registered: 04/03/08
Posts: 526
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: To those who gather under billboards... [Re: daytripper23]
    #10054483 - 03/27/09 03:29 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for this post, it will be a useful reference point for some papers I'm writing now.


--------------------


I'm an insect who dreamt he was a man and loved it, but now that dream is over and the insect is awake


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Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
Re: To those who gather under billboards... [Re: Redrawing]
    #10057563 - 03/27/09 11:33 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Nice read man  :snowman:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: To those who gather under billboards... [Re: daytripper23]
    #10058180 - 03/28/09 02:31 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Important to remember "Heraclitus established the term in Western philosophy" but not precisely "as meaning both the source and fundamental order of the cosmos" nor did he invent the word.


Conversation between Markosthegnostic and I a while back:

Quote:

Quote:

Markosthegnostic said: Lastly, Platonists, or at least Plotinian Neo-Platonists, look at Nous as an intermediary between the One and the soul. The soul partakes of Nous as well as of matter, from which it takes form. Nous is a conceptual parallel with the Logos which became the intermediary between the Godhead and creation. The Logos, like Nous, is pre-existent and creation (in Christian theology) manifests through it ("In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made." :psychsplit:




Quote:

Lakefingers said: In my interpretation of the tradition this is where the Logos became
mistranslated and misunderstood, and lead us down the misunderstanding
of the early Greek tradition we inherited. Logos only became pre-existent
when non-Greeks began projecting their wishes upon Classical philosophy. Yes,
the word was in the begining because Logos is what enables
things to manifest, but it was not preceding reality...until the
Christian church came about and did its work. I won't disagree that
Logos now has many different meanings, mostly due to misinterpretations
about 2,000 years ago, which have lead us to misunderstand what the Greeks
meant by it; about one meaning being best fit I'm not so sure. The word
seems to have existed before (recorded) history. What did it originally mean in
1,000 BC? Anyhow, I'm interested in getting behind what we assume
Logos means and understanding how this idea has influenced our thinking,
to do that I must understand it in its different contexts, I cannot accept the
Christian or modern understanding as a basis of my spiritual beliefs.








Quote:

daytripper23 said:Logos is a representation of the human drive. Conception as a concept.




Is it? How? Which drive?

How should we translate logos? The Bible mistranslates it (or perhaps undertranslates it) with "Word". In Ancient Greek it is légein: making what is spoken appear. Logos can also be translated from Greek as meaning, order, rationale or reason.


Quote:

daytripper23 said:So what is science if there is really no virtue in hypothesis? We blindly fabricate our logos, our conceptions of the universe, and instead on our virtue of poor memory, we "mistake" this as describing the universe itself. The original, blind hypothesis can only prescribe a synthetic technological drive, which we may appropriately consider the actual form of science and logic.




Nutritional supplement:
http://www.amazon.com/Question-Concerning-Technology-Other-Essays/dp/0061319694

Otherwise flowing read. Found it choppy at times, would have to reread on paper.


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