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 krypto2000
Unknown
Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 11,579
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
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 Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding  [Re: Platinum]
#10079222 - 03/31/09 09:28 AM (15 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Platinum said:
So how would you refute that argument. A professor or anyone says "emotion is just chemicals being released that make you feel a certain way" - how do you argue against that? I mean it's true... but that doesn't necessarily make it the only reason why one feels emotion, or experiences it. I don't know what I'm trying to say, I can't really find the right words. Do you guys know what I'm trying to ask tyhough?
I would say that chemicals are just responding to my emotions. We can't prove it one way or another. I'm not saying more of a chemical will not make you more of x emotion or w/e, but there's no reason to think it's not a two way bridge. Science likes to say it like that though because it's a simple, elegant answer, and (for some reason) removing questions is universally considered a good thing (by scientists).
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 Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Platinum]
#10079286 - 03/31/09 09:43 AM (15 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Platinum said:
So how would you refute that argument. A professor or anyone says "emotion is just chemicals being released that make you feel a certain way" - how do you argue against that? I mean it's true... but that doesn't necessarily make it the only reason why one feels emotion, or experiences it. I don't know what I'm trying to say, I can't really find the right words. Do you guys know what I'm trying to ask tyhough?
The easiest way to refute it is to realize that love is more than an emotion. Love, is a concept. And, as I explained in the other thread just a moment ago, concepts, i.e. universals, cannot be contained in matter.
It's 11 minutes long, but if you want a fuller explanation, here it is:
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Icelander]
#10079296 - 03/31/09 09:45 AM (15 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Just chemicals? Chemicals are amazing things. Just as amazing as the concept of love. I think we are just chemical reactions. Take out the chemicals and we is not.
We are chemicals, and chemicals are amazing. But limiting ourselves to only chemicals is to be trapped inside a materialist view. Philosophy offers alternatives as the video explains.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10079447 - 03/31/09 10:21 AM (15 years, 20 days ago) |
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I have no problems with the materialistic view. Everything else seems to be more the subject for compulsive discussion then actualization.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Platinum]
#10079532 - 03/31/09 10:41 AM (15 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Platinum said: A professor or anyone says "emotion is just chemicals being released that make you feel a certain way" - how do you argue against that?
Emotion is not just chemicals. There are always two aspects to every emotion; the raw feeling (pure experience) and the materialistic interaction of matter/energy that comprise the feeling.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: deCypher]
#10079683 - 03/31/09 11:11 AM (15 years, 20 days ago) |
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Once again. Take away chemical reactions and where are the emotions?
Raw feeling/chemical reaction
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Icelander]
#10079733 - 03/31/09 11:18 AM (15 years, 20 days ago) |
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Sure; two separate aspects of the same fundamental substance.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Icelander]
#10079985 - 03/31/09 12:14 PM (15 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Once again. Take away chemical reactions and where are the emotions?
Raw feeling/chemical reaction
I'd bet that scientists can figure out exactly what chemicals are in the human body, and in what amounts. How about we do an experiment where we get all those chemicals, pour them into some human-shaped casing, and see if we produce a human?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Silversoul]
#10080268 - 03/31/09 01:12 PM (15 years, 19 days ago) |
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I fail to see what point you are trying to make here.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Icelander]
#10080537 - 03/31/09 01:57 PM (15 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I fail to see what point you are trying to make here.
Are you familiar with the phrase "necessary but not sufficient"?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Silversoul]
#10080761 - 03/31/09 02:30 PM (15 years, 19 days ago) |
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Your above post still does not make a case for anything IMO. Are you assuming that scientists know how to create life? They don't btw. That doesn't mean much however.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Icelander]
#10080773 - 03/31/09 02:32 PM (15 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Your above post still does not make a case for anything IMO. Are you assuming that scientists know how to create life? They don't btw. That doesn't mean much however.
I'm saying that reducing everything to chemicals leaves out a lot of important information.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Silversoul]
#10080779 - 03/31/09 02:33 PM (15 years, 19 days ago) |
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Like?
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Icelander]
#10080831 - 03/31/09 02:40 PM (15 years, 19 days ago) |
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Like the experiential dimension. Or maybe about information itself. Like I said, put together all the chemicals that make up the human body and it won't produce a human body.
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krypto2000
Unknown
Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 11,579
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Silversoul]
#10080851 - 03/31/09 02:44 PM (15 years, 19 days ago) |
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Both of you, to me seem to have an actual point, but are not making a concious effort to express it. Lots and lots of, as I see it anyways, empty statements here.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Silversoul]
#10080865 - 03/31/09 02:45 PM (15 years, 19 days ago) |
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Unless you know how.
If I put together all the parts of a car you won't get a car either. But if I was a mechanic....
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Icelander]
#10080876 - 03/31/09 02:46 PM (15 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Unless you know how.
If I put together all the parts of a car you won't get a car either. But if I was a mechanic....
That's exactly my point. Reality isn't just matter and energy. It's matter and energy plus information.
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krypto2000
Unknown
Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 11,579
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Silversoul]
#10080888 - 03/31/09 02:47 PM (15 years, 19 days ago) |
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Neither of you know what you're talking about. You can't explain what reality is on a forum  
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Dyingjezuz
Stranger
Registered: 03/08/09
Posts: 168
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Platinum]
#10080890 - 03/31/09 02:47 PM (15 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Platinum said:
People say they have religious experiences under the influence of psychedelics. Is this really a religious experience? I don't think so. I believe its more of a moment of understanding, I don't know if thats the best word for it though.
They are only religious experiences because religion defines what you are experiencing. Does that make sense? I don't believe in religion, and when I have these moments, I don't consider them religious experiences. I think it is a poorly chosen word to describe the moment. They have nothing to do with religion itself, but perhaps some dimension of what a religion includes.
The experience can be religious to the religious. Though it is not religious in itself.
Hopefully I expressed that well, I'm high at the moment and wanted to post this before I forgot.
No it's the other way around. Religion is defined from what we are experiencing. Religion is pure symbolism and at it's core about believing so... You can call it religious if you believe in God or a moment of understanding if you only believe in yourself. Anyay that'ss how I see it
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howtodisappear
Stranger
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Posts: 90
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
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Re: Religious Experience? or A Moment of Understanding [Re: Icelander]
#10081689 - 03/31/09 04:55 PM (15 years, 19 days ago) |
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It all depends on how you define "religious" and "religious experience".
I'd tend to agree with your argument when thinking in terms of the narrower definitions of religious, but I do think that psychedelics are capable of causing religious experiences in people regardless of if the person is religious of not.
Does it have to be just one or the other?
Can't it be possible that psychedelics can create both religious experiences and "moments of understanding", depending on the situation and the person?
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