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InvisibleIcelander
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An interesting thing on Depression
    #10052278 - 03/27/09 10:05 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

I recently read a book about a guy with severe depression that started out of the blue one day when he was a kid. One day he was fine, had a supportive and loving family and friends and then in a moment a cloud of depression desended that lasted well into adulthood.

Here's what I found very interesting. When he became depressed he wasn't just sad. He said he could see "through" everything. society was a sham, people were all phony and lying about all kinds of things, most all the things he cared about seemed alien and stupid. Life seemed like a bad dumb joke the way it was being lived.

Now what do you think about that? Was he delusional in his depression or was he maybe getting a more accurate look at reality without the mental shields or distractions of what we "do"?

Please discuss.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10052307 - 03/27/09 10:09 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Maybe that's what "depression" is, and since it is detrimental to the stability of this society, it is deemed as something that needs to be corrected, especially via expensive methods.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10052328 - 03/27/09 10:12 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

as with many debates, there's no need to start this one with an either/or preposition

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Epigallo]
    #10052346 - 03/27/09 10:14 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

What's your take on it?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10052368 - 03/27/09 10:18 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

there is truth in life being a bad dumb joke, and he was depressed. that's not to say there isn't also truth in life being fun or ecstatic.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Epigallo]
    #10052372 - 03/27/09 10:18 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
as with many debates, there's no need to start this one with an either/or preposition




Then for the sake of debate, take out the maybe.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10052378 - 03/27/09 10:19 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

huh? :confused:

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Epigallo]
    #10052385 - 03/27/09 10:21 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
as with many debates, there's no need to start this one with an either/or preposition




Was this aimed at me? :confused:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10052400 - 03/27/09 10:24 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

oh, no not really. i think individuals want to turn their depression around more than society does though.

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Offlinejvm
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Epigallo]
    #10052491 - 03/27/09 10:40 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

I know how depressed i am when i don't escape from society while seeing through everything.

Escaping seems to socially be looked down upon. But i find that being alone, away from man made noises and structures that i cannot be sad because of being surrounded by true beauty and peace. When i'm around these programmed people and plugged into this matrix everything is obviously programmed and depressing. Pessimism seems to hit me hard because i can foresee the downfall of it all.

If depression is being able to see whats wrong with this world i can see why psychiatrists are quick to throw them some anti-depressants to be content with this cancerous world. I think people who are depressed see more beauty in this world than those who are lying to themselves pretending to be content with how things are going. Escaping seems to be an honest solution.

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OfflineRedRainDrop
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: jvm]
    #10052508 - 03/27/09 10:43 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

You just defined my perception.... I am not depressed, but at times i get extremely frustrated with the things i see go on around me.  It's like i JUST KNOW the outcome of everything, and most of the time im right, which scares me.


--------------------
Fact: Saving the environment can take centuries
A blow job can take up to 5 minutes.
"When was the last time you heard green peace talk about the immense pleasure you get when you put your penis in someone Else's mouth? " -jonlajoie

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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10052547 - 03/27/09 10:51 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Life sucks, why bother?  :shrug:

^ Me the last few months.

In a few weeks when the weather is warming up, I'm back to work, and moved out of my parent's house, life will be just as pointless but I'll probably be feeling good.

Edited by Amber_Glow (03/27/09 10:56 AM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Epigallo]
    #10052633 - 03/27/09 11:03 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
oh, no not really. i think individuals want to turn their depression around more than society does though.




True, but it's society's fault that they're like that in the first place, not the individual's; society does not seem to recognize this.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10052659 - 03/27/09 11:06 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

bradley said:
oh, no not really. i think individuals want to turn their depression around more than society does though.




True, but it's society's fault that they're like that in the first place, not the individual's; society does not seem to recognize this.




Huh?  There are many instances of depression stemming from a neurochemical imbalance in the individual; how is that society's fault?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: deCypher]
    #10052686 - 03/27/09 11:09 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

I don't buy that 'neurochemical imbalances' cause depression, and apparently, there wasn't enough proof of this theory to keep the Zoloft commercials on the air.

What, you think they just disappeared without reason? :nono:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10052706 - 03/27/09 11:12 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Poor diet, lack of sleep, and lack of exercise can certainly contribute to depression, and by taking various pharmacological aids we can lift the individual's moods.  This is certainly some evidence pointing towards some forms of depression being solely neurochemical; of course in some cases the trouble is due to unresolved mental issues but in others maintaining a healthy body and mind will cure the problem from the bottom-up.

Typical SSRIs like Zoloft are not very effective, but there are plenty of other supplements that help with the disorder.  Look into L-Tryptophan and St. John's Wort.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: deCypher]
    #10052740 - 03/27/09 11:16 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Like Icelander said in an earlier thread, all neurosis is the cause of not being able to efficiently manage stress. Even if depression is caused by neurochemicals, however directly or indirectly, those neurochemicals were the cause of a stressed out body/mind.

IMO, supplements just help the body/mind, and I know this from direct experience. I've never directly experienced any neurochemicals and knew without a shadow of a doubt that neurochemicals were the cause of the experience. Hell, I don't even know what neurochemicals look like! :psycrankey:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10052768 - 03/27/09 11:20 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Like Icelander said in an earlier thread, all neurosis is the cause of not being able to efficiently manage stress.




And what substantiation do you have for this claim?  It could be due to genetics, or any other source.

Quote:

Poid said: Even if depression is caused by neurochemicals, however directly or indirectly, those neurochemicals were the cause of a stressed out body/mind.




Again, not necessarily.  Depression could have a genetic component to it as it runs in certain families.  Now, you might argue that the raising of a child in a household already prone to it would make him or her more susceptible to it, but you could also argue that those neurochemicals were the results of a nervous system that's already genetically predisposed towards depression.  My point still stands, at any rate; society is not at fault in all cases of depression.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: deCypher]
    #10052798 - 03/27/09 11:23 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Well in cases like the one mentioned in the OP, it is. The story alone says so.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10052814 - 03/27/09 11:26 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Not necessarily... it could be that the man's mood changed from other circumstances, and viewing society through those new perspective lenses allowed him to see it for what it really is.  We don't have enough information to go by to make a firm judgment.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10052866 - 03/27/09 11:32 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

I've mentioned this before on these boards, but yes, social psych agrees that once you see things for what they really are, you're "sadder, but wiser"

The more accurately a person can see how they are in the world (in terms of skills, values, events), the more likely they are to be depressed. We naturally enhance our impressions of ourselves, and that's why most people don't become depressed by themselves. In this view, it's evolutionary to enhance the view of one's self as a means to better function in the world.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineMycoUnderground
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10052874 - 03/27/09 11:33 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

I wouldn't say he was getting a more accurate look at reality or that he was delusional.  I think he was just a guy who became depressed and as a consequence of his constant mood he looked at things a certain way.

Perhaps he was looking at people's behavior more objectively instaead of in the terms of morality or "right and wrong."  For example instead of thinking that two people are in a relationship because they are in love he would think those people are in a relationship because they have emotional dependancies and sexual needs that have to be satisfied.  It seems he would probably conclude this as somehow bad or depressing.

It seems like he liked to think of himself as seperate or detatched from society in some way.  These kinds of feelings are very common with people who have chronic depression.

I'm curious what he meant by saying "society is a sham."  Thats not really saying anything meaningful.  Maybe the OP could elaborate some more on this.

I believe that this man was also a bit hypocritaical.  This is because he says he "sees through" everything but he doesn't seem to "see through" himself.  I don't think he tried thinking about how his own depression could influence his thoughts.  It seems he was doing it the other way around by saying he was depressed because of the was society and life in general is.

Maybe, although he thought he was looking at the world more objectively or getting a better look at reality, he was really just looking through his own mental shields of his habits and the distractions of what he did.  Being human we all are subject to distractions and mental shields, if you want to call them that.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10052909 - 03/27/09 11:39 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Like Icelander said in an earlier thread, all neurosis is the cause of not being able to efficiently manage stress. Even if depression is caused by neurochemicals, however directly or indirectly, those neurochemicals were the cause of a stressed out body/mind.

IMO, supplements just help the body/mind, and I know this from direct experience. I've never directly experienced any neurochemicals and knew without a shadow of a doubt that neurochemicals were the cause of the experience. Hell, I don't even know what neurochemicals look like! :psycrankey:





all neurosis is the cause of not being able to efficiently manage stress.

Well I didn't actually say that. I said attachment and addiction to permanance is neurotic.:lol:  But in a way you are correct because attachment and addiction cause stress.




--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: deCypher]
    #10052913 - 03/27/09 11:39 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Not necessarily... it could be that the man's mood changed from other circumstances, and viewing society through those new perspective lenses allowed him to see it for what it really is.  We don't have enough information to go by to make a firm judgment.




I don't see how that's any different. :confused:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10052922 - 03/27/09 11:41 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Man sees society as it is, and this causes depression.

vs

Man gets depressed from other factors, and this causes him to see society in this terrible way.

In the first instance society is responsible for the man's depression, in the second society is not.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10052925 - 03/27/09 11:41 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

You said something about depression and stress, I just threw in the word neurosis to cover all mental ailments. I was just paraphrasing, BTW...


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: deCypher]
    #10052931 - 03/27/09 11:42 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Man sees society as it is, and this causes depression.

vs

Man gets depressed from other factors, and this causes him to see society in this terrible way.

In the first instance society is responsible for the man's depression, in the second society is not.




So if society has nothing to do with his depression in the second example, why'd you even mention it?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineMycoUnderground
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Kickle]
    #10052933 - 03/27/09 11:42 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I've mentioned this before on these boards, but yes, social psych agrees that once you see things for what they really are, you're "sadder, but wiser"

The more accurately a person can see how they are in the world (in terms of skills, values, events), the more likely they are to be depressed. We naturally enhance our impressions of ourselves, and that's why most people don't become depressed by themselves. In this view, it's evolutionary to enhance the view of one's self as a means to better function in the world.




I have never heard the first part but I have to disagree.  Noone can say that can see how things "really" are any more than any other person.  And also saying that the more accurately you see the world the "sadder" you are going to be is complete bogus.  Thats like saying the smarter you are the sadder you are.

People become depressed on their own.  People are born with chemical imbalances that have been identified to cause feelings of depression. No outside source is needed for this to happen.

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10052943 - 03/27/09 11:44 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Poid said: So if society has nothing to do with his depression in the second example, why'd you even mention it?




Quote:

deCypher said: My point still stands, at any rate; society is not at fault in all cases of depression.




Quote:

Poid said: Well in cases like the one mentioned in the OP, it is. The story alone says so.




--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: MycoUnderground]
    #10052947 - 03/27/09 11:44 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

MycoUnderground said:
I wouldn't say he was getting a more accurate look at reality or that he was delusional.  I think he was just a guy who became depressed and as a consequence of his constant mood he looked at things a certain way.

Perhaps he was looking at people's behavior more objectively instaead of in the terms of morality or "right and wrong."  For example instead of thinking that two people are in a relationship because they are in love he would think those people are in a relationship because they have emotional dependancies and sexual needs that have to be satisfied.  It seems he would probably conclude this as somehow bad or depressing.

It seems like he liked to think of himself as seperate or detatched from society in some way.  These kinds of feelings are very common with people who have chronic depression.

I'm curious what he meant by saying "society is a sham."  Thats not really saying anything meaningful.  Maybe the OP could elaborate some more on this.

I believe that this man was also a bit hypocritaical.  This is because he says he "sees through" everything but he doesn't seem to "see through" himself.  I don't think he tried thinking about how his own depression could influence his thoughts.  It seems he was doing it the other way around by saying he was depressed because of the was society and life in general is.

Maybe, although he thought he was looking at the world more objectively or getting a better look at reality, he was really just looking through his own mental shields of his habits and the distractions of what he did.  Being human we all are subject to distractions and mental shields, if you want to call them that.





Well he did see through himself also. He know he was acting phony also. He also felt his depression a personal weakness.

I think when he said society was a sham he meant that we made claims about it's benefits that weren't actually there. Maybe Mr Mushroom can remember the title of the book. It's an amazing read and I just touched on it. He and I agree it's the best book we've read in a very long time.

Btw I agree with much of what you have to say here.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: deCypher]
    #10052979 - 03/27/09 11:50 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

I meant, "Why is it even mentioned in the second example.". Isn't that just redundant?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10053015 - 03/27/09 11:55 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

As an alternative analysis of the OP?  :confused:


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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10053032 - 03/27/09 11:58 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Thanks.  The book sounds interesting, too.

Do you remember an example of the benefits he was talking about?  Im curious.

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: deCypher]
    #10053044 - 03/27/09 12:00 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
As an alternative analysis of the OP?  :confused:




If you say that the second example shows that society isn't a cause of depression, then why is society even mentioned in said second example?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10053049 - 03/27/09 12:01 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

To show that the man's perspective on society was an effect from the depression in this hypothetical scenario.


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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: MycoUnderground]
    #10053054 - 03/27/09 12:02 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

MycoUnderground said:
I have never heard the first part but I have to disagree.  Noone can say that can see how things "really" are any more than any other person.  And also saying that the more accurately you see the world the "sadder" you are going to be is complete bogus.  Thats like saying the smarter you are the sadder you are.





You're right to disagree. I was too broad with the initial claim. I knew what I was referring to in my head, but didn't pin it down enough in my writing. This applies to views of the self only. How do 'I' relate in the world. The more accurately someone sees how they relate in the world, the more depressed they are. That to me is seeing things as they really are.

Quote:

MycoUnderground said:
People become depressed on their own.  People are born with chemical imbalances that have been identified to cause feelings of depression. No outside source is needed for this to happen.




Yes, there is a genetic predisposition in some cases. Others can be triggered by family deaths. The social psychology theory is saying that this genetic imbalance results in less self-enhancing, which results in depression. Rather than this imbalance causes depression directly.

Think about how a family death could result in depression. You believe everyone will go on living forever (unrealistically optimistic) and when that illusion gets shattered, you start to realize the world isn't ideal.


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #10053059 - 03/27/09 12:02 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
Life sucks, why bother?  :shrug:

^ Me the last few months.

In a few weeks when the weather is warming up, I'm back to work, and moved out of my parent's house, life will be just as pointless but I'll probably be feeling good.





An age old question. My answer is "because I'm here". My survival instinct is strong and so unless I am in extreme pain (physical or emotional) I won't consider suicide. So then what's left? Well... make the best of it. I always try to remember that I am standing in the way of (because of my fears) making my life better in many ways. So I try to work on that. It makes the days go by faster.

And I agree. I love the summer sun. Camping, hiking and fishing my way down some high desert canyon, the flowers in bloom, nature sounds, the wind, no humans in sight. It's pretty good at times.:thumbup: Have a great spring and summer Amber Glow. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: deCypher]
    #10053094 - 03/27/09 12:05 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
To show that the man's perspective on society was an effect from the depression in this hypothetical scenario.




So it couldn't have been a self-perpetuating cycle, as many forms of depression often are? In such cases, it's really tough, and somewhat arbitrary to identify which came first...


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10053099 - 03/27/09 12:06 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Agreed; all we can really do is lay out potential scenarios and discuss which are more likely.


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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: deCypher]
    #10053156 - 03/27/09 12:13 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Yup. :sadyes:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10053522 - 03/27/09 01:04 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

To Kickle

Could you explain how seeing how you relate in the world results in depression and how that is seeing things as they really are?  I'm a little confused by that.

What you said about self-enhancing is very interesting.  I have never thought of that.  I will have to sit on that one for awhile.

I understand how a family death can be a cause of depression.  However I don't think the cause is that you expect everyone to live forever and thus have your ideals about reality shattered.  I remember being 6 years old and being fully aware that everyone dies, and I think that is likely the case with most people.

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10053628 - 03/27/09 01:19 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I recently read a book about a guy with severe depression that started out of the blue one day when he was a kid. One day he was fine, had a supportive and loving family and friends and then in a moment a cloud of depression desended that lasted well into adulthood.

Here's what I found very interesting. When he became depressed he wasn't just sad. He said he could see "through" everything. society was a sham, people were all phony and lying about all kinds of things, most all the things he cared about seemed alien and stupid. Life seemed like a bad dumb joke the way it was being lived.

Now what do you think about that? Was he delusional in his depression or was he maybe getting a more accurate look at reality without the mental shields or distractions of what we "do"?

Please discuss.




I think he was seeing the reality of things, but if he was still depressed then i'd say the mental shields were still up in some way.

Seeing reality should be liberating in my experience, not a new burden to be depressed about, at first its depressing though as you start seeing everything you held so dear as totally meaningless, but then that menainglessness becomes like the weight of the universe lifted from your shoulders!

I'd say the depression should be seen through aswell, its all hollow, including the depression

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: TheSeer]
    #10053764 - 03/27/09 01:42 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Nice, I kind of think that as well.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: TheSeer]
    #10053840 - 03/27/09 01:51 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

I think it's extremely awkward to interact with others IRL once this realization has been made...


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10053860 - 03/27/09 01:53 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Must... use.... controlled folly.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10054046 - 03/27/09 02:17 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

If I saw you in person, I probably wouldn't say much, but I might give you a big :awesome:!


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10054278 - 03/27/09 02:57 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Sounds like he was a real wiener, but he wasn't delusional. The things he perceived were true. Everybody knows that this happens to a certain degree. So, now I ask...why the depression? Society just is...it is not there to baby us along and meet all of our preferences. We each are small cogs in that wheel. I wouldn't get depressed if a grizzly bear tried to eat me, I would act. It sounds like this guy had LEARNED to be depressed because he had been programmed to take the actions of his fellow men personally, and was disavowing responsibility for his emotions.. Carlos Castaneda wrote "The average man hooks his attention to the actions of his fellow men, while a warrior hooks his attention to infinity." You just gave a great example of why he wrote this. How can you exercise power in this world if all you do is worry about how gypped you feel?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10054302 - 03/27/09 03:02 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

"Don't get so worked up over nothing," don Juan said calmly. "You already know that a whole
era in your life is coming to an end, but an era doesn't really come to an end until the king dies."
"What do you mean by that, don Juan?"
"You are the king, and you are just like your friends. That is the truth that makes you shake in
your boots. One thing you can do is to accept it at face value, which, of course, you can't do. The
other thing you can do is to say, 'I am not like that, I am not like that,' and repeat to yourself that you are not like that. I promise you, however, that a moment will come when you will realize that
you are like that."




--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10054339 - 03/27/09 03:08 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Sounds like he was a real wiener, but he wasn't delusional. The things he perceived were true. Everybody knows that this happens to a certain degree. So, now I ask...why the depression? Society just is...it is not there to baby us along and meet all of our preferences. We each are small cogs in that wheel. I wouldn't get depressed if a grizzly bear tried to eat me, I would act. It sounds like this guy had LEARNED to be depressed because he had been programmed to take the actions of his fellow men personally, and was disavowing responsibility for his emotions.. Carlos Castaneda wrote "The average man hooks his attention to the actions of his fellow men, while a warrior hooks his attention to infinity." You just gave a great example of why he wrote this. How can you exercise power in this world if all you do is worry about how gypped you feel?





You tell me why? This all started when he was like eight years old. His family sounded great and very loving and supportive. He claimed his life was about perfect until the cloud descended. He was put on antidepressants about 15 years later or something  but they didn't work. Then zoloft appeared on the market and they tried that. He said about two weeks later he was walking across a bridge and the cloud lifted as mysteriously as it came. If he went off the stuff it comes back. Now you tell me, why the depression?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10054634 - 03/27/09 03:48 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

You tell me why? This all started when he was like eight years old. His family sounded great and very loving and supportive.





It was written on paper it must be true...of course he never learned to see things the way he did like everybody else. My bad, he was the exception...lol.

Quote:

He was put on antidepressants about 15 years later or something  but they didn't work. Then zoloft appeared on the market and they tried that. He said about two weeks later he was walking across a bridge and the cloud lifted as mysteriously as it came. If he went off the stuff it comes back. Now you tell me, why the depression?




Yep they sound like a normal healthy family...got him loaded up on meds when he was a child. Seriously, my brother takes Zoloft for paranoid schizophrenia. It deadens your nervous system. No wonder it lifted the depression. If he had been asleep he would not have been depressed. That's my view based on what you posted.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10054671 - 03/27/09 03:54 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Oh yeah...Zoloft inhibits serotonin production in the body and clinical trials determined that it was ineffective in the treatment of depression. Patients are also at increased risk of suicide while taking it. What I know of serotonin tells me that inhibition of it could lead to depression.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10055685 - 03/27/09 06:14 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:

You tell me why? This all started when he was like eight years old. His family sounded great and very loving and supportive.





It was written on paper it must be true...of course he never learned to see things the way he did like everybody else. My bad, he was the exception...lol.

Quote:

He was put on antidepressants about 15 years later or something  but they didn't work. Then zoloft appeared on the market and they tried that. He said about two weeks later he was walking across a bridge and the cloud lifted as mysteriously as it came. If he went off the stuff it comes back. Now you tell me, why the depression?




Yep they sound like a normal healthy family...got him loaded up on meds when he was a child. Seriously, my brother takes Zoloft for paranoid schizophrenia. It deadens your nervous system. No wonder it lifted the depression. If he had been asleep he would not have been depressed. That's my view based on what you posted.





So we must assume it's not true because it was written on paper?

No not when he was a kid, read it again he was in his mid twenty's when he started and by his own choice. Up until then he refused it because he thought only losers use meds and he could overcome it by will power. BTW I'm not defending the use of meds for depression.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10055694 - 03/27/09 06:15 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Oh yeah...Zoloft inhibits serotonin production in the body and clinical trials determined that it was ineffective in the treatment of depression. Patients are also at increased risk of suicide while taking it. What I know of serotonin tells me that inhibition of it could lead to depression.





OK then speculate. What brought him out of his depression? Lets just say his description of how that happened is accurate. Any ideas?

When he did come out he realize he had "lost" many years of his life. He faked a press pass as a reporter and went to Bosnia as a war corespondent. :laugh: The book gets real wild then.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (03/27/09 06:18 PM)

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10056021 - 03/27/09 07:01 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Humans evolved to be unhappy.  It's really a brilliant survival mechanism: unhappiness keeps us wanting, conquering, eating, hoarding, fucking, stressing and all the other things that keep us alive.  Our brains are wired to tell us "this is not enough."  It keeps us alive, but unhappy.  It's ruthless and cruel but it works like a charm.

Survival is pretty easy for a lot of us now, so we're stuck with that shitty outdated survival program that doesn't do a lot for quality of life.  But there are ways of dealing with it.  Nowadays I tend to think that anything that sucks only sucks because of how my brain tells me to think about it.  If I can't accept something, it's my fault and my problem.

I think he probably figured that out.  First the nature of the ailment, and then the prescription.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10056895 - 03/27/09 08:58 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

You keep bringing out more details than was in the first post. You can't try to shoot someone down by introducing new info at your leisure. That just means you arrange the discussion to favor you from the start. There is no difference in this guy and the thousands of other people with depression. So he came out of his depression, and Zoloft wasn't the key...OK. Sometimes people take responsibility. These things aren't magic...they are willed to happen...no surprise. What point are you trying to make?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10057008 - 03/27/09 09:19 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
You keep bringing out more details than was in the first post. You can't try to shoot someone down by introducing new info at your leisure. That just means you arrange the discussion to favor you from the start. There is no difference in this guy and the thousands of other people with depression. So he came out of his depression, and Zoloft wasn't the key...OK. Sometimes people take responsibility. These things aren't magic...they are willed to happen...no surprise. What point are you trying to make?





I'm not trying to shoot you down because I have drawn no conclusions myself. Of course I can't put the whole book in here and I'm sorry if I haven't given enough information.

Actually my origional question in my mind was about if depression gives one a clearer picture of our entrapment in culture or it is a basic unrealistic stance.

On another note.
"Don't get so worked up over nothing," don Juan said calmly. "You already know that a whole
era in your life is coming to an end, but an era doesn't really come to an end until the king dies."
"What do you mean by that, don Juan?"
"You are the king, and you are just like your friends. That is the truth that makes you shake in
your boots. One thing you can do is to accept it at face value, which, of course, you can't do. The
other thing you can do is to say, 'I am not like that, I am not like that,' and repeat to yourself that you are not like that. I promise you, however, that a moment will come when you will realize that
you are like that."


Are you like this quote or like don juan have you grown beyond?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10057247 - 03/27/09 10:17 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Was he delusional in his depression or was he maybe getting a more accurate look at reality without the mental shields or distractions of what we "do"?




people can get a more accurate look at reality in all kinds of states.  depression caused him to be non-accepting of the faults of the world.  a happy person can still see the faults and superficiality of the world but he would be more accepting of them.  i think it is natural for depressed people to be non-accepting of many things. 

the happy person can be delusional in his happiness, and the depressed can be delusional in their depression.  when it comes to delusion, everyone is faced with it in varying degrees of intensity.  how do we know who possesses more or less of it, where is the scale.

Edited by deranger (03/28/09 02:08 AM)

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: MycoUnderground]
    #10057272 - 03/27/09 10:22 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

MycoUnderground said:
To Kickle

Could you explain how seeing how you relate in the world results in depression and how that is seeing things as they really are?  I'm a little confused by that.





Social Psychologists don't speculate why those who have a more realistic view of themselves are, in general, depressed, it is simply a noted observation. The example that was provided for me in my social psychology class is close to what follows:

The professor walks in at the start of class, and writes down 15 or so adjectives on the board (all positive). Compassionate, organized, attractive, etc. After writing them down, he had us take a piece of paper out and score each item on a scale of 1-10. 1 being low, 10 being high. After everyone had completed the task, he asked us to derive the mean of the scores. Once everyone had completed that, he asked individuals with a mean score below 5 to raise their hand. No one raised their hand. Below six was less than a handful, and until you get passed the 7 mark, not very many hands went up.

So, everyone in the class is above average in their traits? The explanation being that we enhance ourselves, either by underestimating our weaknesses, or overestimating our strengths. This makes a lot of intuitive sense to me. When we succeed, we're very willing to accept responsibility for the success. It was me, I did it, look at how great I am. When we fail, we're quick to press the blame onto an external stimulus. Oh, the teacher was crummy and that's why I failed the test. Or, my boss sucks, and that's why I'm not getting any promotions.

So, while social psychologists don't provide an explanation for why a lack of self-enhancement results in depression, I think that a line can be drawn from the way in which a person views failures or successes. If they attribute their failures to themselves, as is rightfully so, suddenly those weaknesses become more real. Likewise, if that success which was only partly due to you, and partly due to someones aid is observed fairly, the success becomes less substantial. Feeling successful makes us happy, while failure is something we try to avoid. I can see how a shift in focus can result in a shift in mood.



Quote:

MycoUnderground said:
I understand how a family death can be a cause of depression.  However I don't think the cause is that you expect everyone to live forever and thus have your ideals about reality shattered.  I remember being 6 years old and being fully aware that everyone dies, and I think that is likely the case with most people.




Right again, I'm glad you're reading what I'm writing and analyzing it for yourself rather than passing it by. I wrote my last several posts in between classes, and they were rather hurried, so I apologize. I knew after I typed that it wasn't very strong, but I didn't have the time to retype it, and there it stood.

A more reasonable example would be:
An individual hears stories of drunk drivers killing people, but doesn't believe it can happen to them. They drive drunk, feeling in control. Unrealistic optimism, given the evidence. Then one day, they hit someone and kill them. Suddenly the reality of a situation is crushing down on them.

It's harder to pick daily examples out, because the repercussions for our enhancements aren't seen, which allows these enhancements to continue existing free of consequence. That's why they're beneficial, and not harmful. If they get too far to either extreme, they start to cause problems. A person who doesn't believe drunk driving can cause consequences for them, is far too optimistic. Someone who believes that all of their successes and failures are the fault of themselves alone, is likely to feel unsuccessful or that their existence doesn't mean anything when everyone can do what they do.

Does that answer the question a little better?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (03/27/09 10:34 PM)

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Invisiblederanger
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10057346 - 03/27/09 10:35 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Sounds like he was a real wiener, but he wasn't delusional. The things he perceived were true. Everybody knows that this happens to a certain degree. So, now I ask...why the depression? Society just is...it is not there to baby us along and meet all of our preferences. We each are small cogs in that wheel. I wouldn't get depressed if a grizzly bear tried to eat me, I would act. It sounds like this guy had LEARNED to be depressed because he had been programmed to take the actions of his fellow men personally, and was disavowing responsibility for his emotions.. Carlos Castaneda wrote "The average man hooks his attention to the actions of his fellow men, while a warrior hooks his attention to infinity." You just gave a great example of why he wrote this. How can you exercise power in this world if all you do is worry about how gypped you feel?




You tell me why? This all started when he was like eight years old. His family sounded great and very loving and supportive. He claimed his life was about perfect until the cloud descended. He was put on antidepressants about 15 years later or something  but they didn't work. Then zoloft appeared on the market and they tried that. He said about two weeks later he was walking across a bridge and the cloud lifted as mysteriously as it came. If he went off the stuff it comes back. Now you tell me, why the depression?




Because he didn't have the personal power to boost the serotonin levels in his brain himself.  He sounds needy and weak.  He couldn't figure out what it was that was causing his depression, and wasn't aware enough of the methods to move through it.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Kickle]
    #10057349 - 03/27/09 10:35 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Oh, and also, I feel it's prudent to say that the above does not explain all depressions. It is a subset.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Kickle]
    #10058724 - 03/28/09 07:13 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Thanks for all the great responses. :thumbup: For me this was an interesting debate.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10058893 - 03/28/09 08:30 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:...
Here's what I found very interesting. When he became depressed he wasn't just sad. He said he could see "through" everything. society was a sham, people were all phony and lying about all kinds of things, most all the things he cared about seemed alien and stupid. Life seemed like a bad dumb joke the way it was being lived. ....




emotion does the same kind of thing that psychedelic does:
at both ends of the spectrum, happy or sad.

vision (all senses) and memory patterns persist longer.

you get emotional and then you see people, and the memories of them - sometimes wearing other masks, and this resolves clownishly contradictorily - associative memory can seem arbitrary or can operate to retrieve antithetical content especially under pressure.

so you see paradox, theatre, phoniness, voidness, and you try to "make sense" or make new connections between the layered images/memories and it all comes up as unsatisfactory - this is 100% normal.
(aka. dhukka & sangsara)

what happens with our layered experiences is related to set and setting, but
arriving at this kind of fugue a few times makes it a familiar habit, or cognitive direction and that sets the mode of dreaming for the person, invading emotion, psychedelics, and all aspects of life.

often the detection of theme and anti-theme is a mission or art-form; and it becomes part of the identity and self image of the person.

the antidepressants kind of establish a continuity of mood, which dampens the likelihood of going emotional (getting stoned-layered) but it is only of use as temporary relief, or as a tool to help address cognitive habits (therapy).


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Offlinezouden
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10058906 - 03/28/09 08:34 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Oh yeah...Zoloft inhibits serotonin production in the body and clinical trials determined that it was ineffective in the treatment of depression. Patients are also at increased risk of suicide while taking it. What I know of serotonin tells me that inhibition of it could lead to depression.




Sertraline (Zoloft) is effective for certain types of depression. For most people it doesn't work, but when it does work, it works well. We also can't identify if someone will respond to sertraline until we try it. Same with venlafaxine. There's a new antidepressant coming out in the next few years that will blow all these ones out of the water in terms of efficacy and greatly reduced side effects. I think it'll make all other antidepressants obsolete.

Failing that, there's always the last resort treatment for depression: electro-convulsive therapy. It's amazingly effective. Nothing else comes close. It has one pretty bad side effect though, amnesia.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: redgreenvines]
    #10059018 - 03/28/09 09:05 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Icelander said:...
Here's what I found very interesting. When he became depressed he wasn't just sad. He said he could see "through" everything. society was a sham, people were all phony and lying about all kinds of things, most all the things he cared about seemed alien and stupid. Life seemed like a bad dumb joke the way it was being lived. ....




emotion does the same kind of thing that psychedelic does:
at both ends of the spectrum, happy or sad.

vision (all senses) and memory patterns persist longer.

you get emotional and then you see people, and the memories of them - sometimes wearing other masks, and this resolves clownishly contradictorily - associative memory can seem arbitrary or can operate to retrieve antithetical content especially under pressure.

so you see paradox, theatre, phoniness, voidness, and you try to "make sense" or make new connections between the layered images/memories and it all comes up as unsatisfactory - this is 100% normal.
(aka. dhukka & sangsara)

what happens with our layered experiences is related to set and setting, but
arriving at this kind of fugue a few times makes it a familiar habit, or cognitive direction and that sets the mode of dreaming for the person, invading emotion, psychedelics, and all aspects of life.

often the detection of theme and anti-theme is a mission or art-form; and it becomes part of the identity and self image of the person.

the antidepressants kind of establish a continuity of mood, which dampens the likelihood of going emotional (getting stoned-layered) but it is only of use as temporary relief, or as a tool to help address cognitive habits (therapy).





Great post.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: zouden]
    #10059022 - 03/28/09 09:07 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)

It has one pretty bad side effect though, amnesia.

Is it total? When will I be able to try it?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10061044 - 03/28/09 05:12 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Actually my origional question in my mind was about if depression gives one a clearer picture of our entrapment in culture or it is a basic unrealistic stance.




OK. I can handle that.
Answer:
It does not give a clearer picture. It is just another way to distort the picture by changing the emphasis. There is NO clear picture. Our moods and attitudes always distort the picture. It is impossible to be objective. Subjectivity is all we have. Is long term depression normal? No. Having any constant mood persist long term with no change is abnormal. This would lead me to decide that these people had become irrational, and their judgment was no longer trustworthy.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: zouden]
    #10061049 - 03/28/09 05:15 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

There's a new antidepressant coming out in the next few years that will blow all these ones out of the water in terms of efficacy and greatly reduced side effects. I think it'll make all other antidepressants obsolete.




Drugs are for emergency management of course. The long term solution is to learn to live a balanced life. treating the symptom just suppresses the symptom and does not address the cause.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10061158 - 03/28/09 05:40 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

If you postpone long enough, you never have to deal with the symptoms. :cool:


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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10061238 - 03/28/09 05:53 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:

There's a new antidepressant coming out in the next few years that will blow all these ones out of the water in terms of efficacy and greatly reduced side effects. I think it'll make all other antidepressants obsolete.




Drugs are for emergency management of course. The long term solution is to learn to live a balanced life. treating the symptom just suppresses the symptom and does not address the cause.




Generally, yes, but in this case it's more complicated than that. The new drug might actually treat the root cause. I can't say much more until we publish our results. I'm starting a new, very big experiment next week which might shed some light on the subject :awesome:

We didn't invent the drug, btw. We just discovered how it works, quite accidentally :smile:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10062175 - 03/28/09 08:16 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I recently read a book about a guy with severe depression that started out of the blue one day when he was a kid. One day he was fine, had a supportive and loving family and friends and then in a moment a cloud of depression desended that lasted well into adulthood.

Here's what I found very interesting. When he became depressed he wasn't just sad. He said he could see "through" everything. society was a sham, people were all phony and lying about all kinds of things, most all the things he cared about seemed alien and stupid. Life seemed like a bad dumb joke the way it was being lived.

Now what do you think about that? Was he delusional in his depression or was he maybe getting a more accurate look at reality without the mental shields or distractions of what we "do"?

Please discuss.




Wihtout reading anyone's answer, the first thing that sprang to my mind was the Dead Sea.  It is dead and lifeless because it doesn't give out, it only takes in.

Hope that helps.


--------------------

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OfflineTeamAmerica
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10062264 - 03/28/09 08:32 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Life is not all about being happy goddamnit

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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #10062308 - 03/28/09 08:40 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Sounds like he suffered "derealization" along with depression.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: Poid]
    #10062344 - 03/28/09 08:46 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I don't buy that 'neurochemical imbalances' cause depression, and apparently, there wasn't enough proof of this theory to keep the Zoloft commercials on the air.

What, you think they just disappeared without reason? :nono:




For real?  There is an ungodly amount of evidence of neurochemical correlations to depression and all mind states.  All mind states have a physical correlate, which is to say that while we can't infer causation in either direction, we know there is a relation.  Chemical imbalances can make you depressed, and a depressed mind state can cause your to manifest certain chemical levels. 

Basically, if you experience something, your brain is moving in some fashion.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #10062941 - 03/28/09 10:19 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

correlations yes
cause and effect not so well explained.

morning sun in east was known for centuries before the spinning of the earth was accepted as the cause rather than the encirclement of our planet by the unlikely transit of the much larger star.

brain chemistry understanding is like our celestial understanding 800 years ago.

so far
all we have are correlations and tampering related to chemical imbalances, very little about cause and effect is understood when it comes to states of mind, mood, memory etc.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: An interesting thing on Depression [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #10062951 - 03/28/09 10:21 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

jonathanseagull said:
Quote:

Poid said:
I don't buy that 'neurochemical imbalances' cause depression, and apparently, there wasn't enough proof of this theory to keep the Zoloft commercials on the air.

What, you think they just disappeared without reason? :nono:




For real?  There is an ungodly amount of evidence of neurochemical correlations to depression and all mind states.  All mind states have a physical correlate, which is to say that while we can't infer causation in either direction, we know there is a relation.  Chemical imbalances can make you depressed, and a depressed mind state can cause your to manifest certain chemical levels. 

Basically, if you experience something, your brain is moving in some fashion.




For real. I find it absurd to opine that consciousness is ruled by chemicals.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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