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Offlineteeter
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AI Takeover
    #10022705 - 03/22/09 08:46 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Why do ppl get so "end of the world" about this stuff

i see movies like i robot and i always hear ppl talking about how AI will improve itself until its smarter than us and then dominate us.....i just dont see it

as far as i see the, the highest potential for us to program a computer is: it takes in/seeks knowledge and stores that knowledge and then applies its knowledge to stimuli

this computer can be self aware and can even improve its own programming but i really dont see how programmed responses can lead to a computer takeover....anyone with a brain would put laws against harm to humans in the programming....how can a computer get around this?

where does the computer make the leap from knowledge + response -----> being sentient

doesnt really make sense....if we do make AI, it will probably just end up aiding us.....car's would drive themselves, wars could be fought with robots, ect....dont see where the takeover becomes possible if we use our fucking brains and dont tell em to go to town reprogramming whatever they want


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"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern." - William Blake

"Psychedelics helped me to escape.. albeit momentarily.. from the prison of my mind. It over-rode the habit patterns of thought and I was able to taste innocence again. Looking at sensations freshly without the conceptual overlay was very profound." - Ram Das


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: AI Takeover [Re: teeter]
    #10022752 - 03/22/09 08:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


where does the computer make the leap from knowledge + response -----> being sentient




Nobody even knows when biological organisms make that leap - but they do.

'Artificial' life/intelligence will reproduce and mutate just like biological life/intelligence.  Mutation and selection is a very powerful mechanism, it drove the development of sentient biology, why cant it drive the development of sentient 'silicon'?


My vision of the future is not one where AI takes over, but rather there is a fusion of biology and technology to the point where the distinction between the two blurs.


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Offlineteeter
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Re: AI Takeover [Re: DieCommie]
    #10023648 - 03/23/09 12:06 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

hmm interesting....guess we might all be cyborgs

however i have a few things for u to think over:

1.) biology made the jump due to natural selection....robots dont really have that working for them because the bad ones dont fail to reproduce....we make them, so if we cant get them past "applying knowledge to stimuli" i dont see how they'll make the leap....we are evolution if we cant do it, they fail

2.) going off #1 (we are the evolving factor....they dont have natural selection to guide them)....why would we make a "sentient" computer....what functionality would this provide....the good of computers is that they perfrom amazing operations for us and basically act as our "slaves"....making a sentient computer poses a million moral issues nobody wants to deal with and the addition of sentience to an all knowing super computer would serve no purpose....imo making a sentient computer is playing with moral fire as much as time travel and human cloning

3.) if as u say we end up as a fusion of biology and technology i contest that it will be more because we become cyborgs to eliminate disease and other issues than because technology becomes sentient....if technology did in fact become sentient how would it fuse with us....i doubt many ppl would willingly combine with a sentient machine

basically they dont have the means to "evolve" themselves until they are alrdy sentient, so if we cant do it, they cant....and even if we could why?

third question is just food for thought


--------------------
"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern." - William Blake

"Psychedelics helped me to escape.. albeit momentarily.. from the prison of my mind. It over-rode the habit patterns of thought and I was able to taste innocence again. Looking at sensations freshly without the conceptual overlay was very profound." - Ram Das


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: AI Takeover [Re: teeter]
    #10023772 - 03/23/09 12:31 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The future of AI lies in software just as it lies in hardware.  Consider this old post I made on software that mutates, evolves and reproduces... http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9145544#9145544

Though for now it is a symbiotic relationship, it may break free and be self sustaining one day.


Why would we make a sentient computer?  People like to create and explore.  The creation of sentience, or at least facilitating in it, would definitely be sought after.


Dont just think of people hooking up to machines...  the two will become integrated from birth...  Technology will fuse with biology on many levels.  Perhaps nanites becomes part of biology just as host mitochondria likely did so long ago; sentient AI with biological components and all combinations there of. 

Following the great mass extinction taking place right now a vacuum will allow for new novel forms of life to evolve, ones that may very well be integrated with our exponentially increasing computing and robotics technology.  You can probably guess Im a sci fi nerd.  I like all the space stuff, but I think the genre that will fit our future most is that of cyber punk like I describe above.  None of it violates known science and I think it follows an extrapolation of current events.


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Offlineteeter
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Re: AI Takeover [Re: DieCommie]
    #10024009 - 03/23/09 01:31 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

hmmm very interesting stuff

i liked the mitochondria example...imo cyborgs are still more likely :tongue: but thats a cool idea

off topic but: i always think "god why couldnt i have been alive in the 60s" but actually being born in the late 80s is pretty awesome now that i think about it....ima get to see all this crazy technology and science stuff go down and if the world ends b/c of it, ill still have lifed a full life, plus...i can still listen to hendrix and do acid :wink: (just no woodstock live :frown: )


--------------------
"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern." - William Blake

"Psychedelics helped me to escape.. albeit momentarily.. from the prison of my mind. It over-rode the habit patterns of thought and I was able to taste innocence again. Looking at sensations freshly without the conceptual overlay was very profound." - Ram Das


Edited by teeter (03/23/09 01:31 AM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: AI Takeover [Re: teeter]
    #10024235 - 03/23/09 03:00 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

teeter said:
hmm interesting....guess we might all be cyborgs

however i have a few things for u to think over:

1.) biology made the jump due to natural selection....robots dont really have that working for them because the bad ones dont fail to reproduce....we make them, so if we cant get them past "applying knowledge to stimuli" i dont see how they'll make the leap....we are evolution if we cant do it, they fail

2.) going off #1 (we are the evolving factor....they dont have natural selection to guide them)....why would we make a "sentient" computer....what functionality would this provide....the good of computers is that they perfrom amazing operations for us and basically act as our "slaves"....making a sentient computer poses a million moral issues nobody wants to deal with and the addition of sentience to an all knowing super computer would serve no purpose....imo making a sentient computer is playing with moral fire as much as time travel and human cloning

3.) if as u say we end up as a fusion of biology and technology i contest that it will be more because we become cyborgs to eliminate disease and other issues than because technology becomes sentient....if technology did in fact become sentient how would it fuse with us....i doubt many ppl would willingly combine with a sentient machine

basically they dont have the means to "evolve" themselves until they are alrdy sentient, so if we cant do it, they cant....and even if we could why?

third question is just food for thought






biology didn't "jump" to natural selection, it is just a consequence of our world.  While your observation that the entity would need to be able to reproduce for the best chance of becoming powerful, so what?  I don't see why you presume that the entity won't.  Software can.  Software can use existing hardware to make more hardware and software.....

Its not like a machine can't make more of itself neccesarily, and a well programed one that has the ability to develop the best software would do quite well.  I'd imagine programing certain "black box" processes that optimize themselves would work well and arrive quickly at good programs.



And how do you know if a machine is sentient?  And what do you mean "willingly combine"?  Is a dog sentient?  People willinglyl utilize dogs that can kill them. 

Given that I think its quite difficult to determine if something is sentient even if we work out a decent definition, I don't forsee this as being such a large problem giving that people allready cohabitate with things they utilize despite substantial risk to themselves.  Cars, dogs, other people, pacemakers, whatever.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: AI Takeover [Re: teeter]
    #10024259 - 03/23/09 03:14 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

teeter said:
why would we make a "sentient" computer....what functionality would this provide....the good of computers is that they perfrom amazing operations for us and basically act as our "slaves"....



That's right, but there are some tasks that will probably require artificial intelligence before it they can be fully computerised... so eventually it might make sense to build a computer that's sentient. Or at least 'semi-sentient' (if such a thing exists). A computer with the intelligence of a 6-year-old, but with superior motor skills, might be extremely useful at performing certain tasks. And so it goes from there.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: AI Takeover [Re: zouden]
    #10027355 - 03/23/09 03:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Heinlien wrote about this decades ago. Perhaps we need the 3 laws of robotics?

We are already a fusion of man and machine. How many here have no reading glasses, hearing aids, dental fillings or other devices, implants, artificial joints and so on? It will progress and there will be chips implanted to give us greater powers. They might include a tiny 10,000 terabyte chip to store important information, devices to regulate blood sugar for diabetics, and so on. We already have pace makers for heart patients. They are right now trying to get people to accept chips for identity. You could breeze through customs if you had one. It will only progress.

Will stand alone robots take over the world? Only if they are programmed to do so. But what if they get self replicating abilities and some rogue hacker programs them to go out and kill? We would have to have machines to protect us from the bad robots just like we have to protect ourselves from bad programs on the internet. In fact I read a sci fi story about that same thing a long time ago. If it can happen, sooner or later it will happen.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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OfflineLuNaTiX
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Re: AI Takeover [Re: teeter]
    #10030421 - 03/23/09 11:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The "living computer" was grown from 25,000 neurons extracted from a rat's brain and arranged over a grid of 60 electrodes in a Petri dish.

The brain cells then started to reconnect themselves, forming microscopic interconnections, said Thomas DeMarse, professor of biomedical engineering at the University of Florida.


- http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/11/02/brain.dish/

if a layer of brain cells can fly a flight simulator what do you think will happen when they figure out how to create even a marble sized ball of brain cells and understand fully how to interact with it, and teach it. No fatigue, no emotions, no morals, just strictly logic and whatever you feed into that brain. It's still somewhat artificial.

Our brains are meant for our bodies, grow a brain with no need for a body and you will have one powerful entity. And it is not all about the size of the brain, it is the efficiency of the code that runs in it. Humans develop their own operating system through our senses, but this operating system is based on alot of information from the senses and complexity of the interactions between all this data is intense. When you take away all the senses and teach it lets say, English, then programming in several languages (I know these would be hard to do, but lets say they do this somehow) and then feed it whatever you want it to know, as it learns you can teach it to lets say reproduce in a sense, this would involve it analyzing the its code and Operating system, its data and looking for patterns and finding ways to program a more efficient existence based on what you feed it. So once it decides what needs to be changed in the OS and data structure and all that stuff, it would compile a new version of itself, carrying on only the bare essentials of its existence. It would be a lot like a seed. So this old version of it's existence, with no will to live or die really, would kill all processes related to it and execute the new seed and start all over again, each time getting faster and more efficient at storing and processing data. After a few reproductions i think you would need to make a new synthetic brain to install the seed program on, I think a fresh brain would show the greatest results with the new seed program.

But, this is all theory and I'm no professional.


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