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 MJF
Human Being
 
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 1,826
Loc: Between 15 and 45 degrees long...
Last seen: 13 days, 17 hours
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 fate/destiny.... 
#10022866 - 03/22/09 09:14 PM (15 years, 28 days ago) |
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i'm not here to argue whether or not there is fate/destiny. but rather pose a question. if you could be born into a world with fate or with out fate which would you choose?
i sort of like the idea of choosing my own destiny...but doing so feels sort of contrived(and ultimately hard to choose). where as a predestined fate would have some higher purpose/meaning...so i would choose a life with a fate/destiny.
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 DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: fate/destiny.... [Re: MJF]
#10022882 - 03/22/09 09:16 PM (15 years, 28 days ago) |
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No fate FTW. With destiny, I am a mere mindless automaton.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: fate/destiny.... [Re: DieCommie]
#10022918 - 03/22/09 09:21 PM (15 years, 28 days ago) |
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With fate you don't have any decisions to make and ultimately you don't have any freedom. I say F that.
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MJF
Human Being
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 1,826
Loc: Between 15 and 45 degrees long...
Last seen: 13 days, 17 hours
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but isn't there freedom in just getting to experience everything and going for the ride? i'm overwhelmed with all the decisions to be made.
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MJF
Human Being
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 1,826
Loc: Between 15 and 45 degrees long...
Last seen: 13 days, 17 hours
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Re: fate/destiny.... [Re: DieCommie]
#10023427 - 03/22/09 11:19 PM (15 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Qubit said:
No fate FTW. With destiny, I am a mere mindless automaton.
why so?
it takes a mind to observe reality.
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
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Re: fate/destiny.... [Re: MJF]
#10023429 - 03/22/09 11:20 PM (15 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
MJF said:
if you could be born into a world with fate or with out fate which would you choose?
just seems like an arbitrary question... heh 
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Jesus loves you.
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MJF
Human Being
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 1,826
Loc: Between 15 and 45 degrees long...
Last seen: 13 days, 17 hours
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Re: fate/destiny.... [Re: andrewss]
#10023446 - 03/22/09 11:23 PM (15 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
andrewss said:
Quote:
MJF said:
if you could be born into a world with fate or with out fate which would you choose?
just seems like an arbitrary question... heh
it is.
why didn't you care to answer it?
feel free to debate the pros/cons of either world.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: fate/destiny.... [Re: MJF]
#10023515 - 03/22/09 11:37 PM (15 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
MJF said:
but isn't there freedom in just getting to experience everything and going for the ride? i'm overwhelmed with all the decisions to be made.
no, freedom is having to make choices.
I'm sorry that you can't handle freedom.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: fate/destiny.... [Re: MJF]
#10024020 - 03/23/09 01:35 AM (15 years, 27 days ago) |
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Destiny. Even with destiny one has to take ones' 'chances' (meaning, has to make ones' choices in the right time at he right place).
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C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 899
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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I would pick this world.
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,380
Loc: el sol
Last seen: 11 years, 2 days
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Re: fate/destiny.... [Re: MJF]
#10024370 - 03/23/09 04:17 AM (15 years, 27 days ago) |
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I feel as though it would make no difference whether or not you lived in a random, or predetermined, world.
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大开眼界
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
Destiny. Even with destiny one has to take ones' 'chances' (meaning, has to make ones' choices in the right time at he right place).
How so? Isn't destiny already determined?
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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I think its cowardice to ask for your life to be planned out for you
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LobsterSauce
Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 19,891
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I found 'The Alchemist' by Paulo Cuelho a good,easy book about a man who follows his destiny.
He listens to good omens or 'the language of the world' in aiding his search for treasure and finding his dream.
Essentially,Paulo portrays destiny as something which you can either follow or not. You can choose to listen to the 'language of the world' i.e. hidden signs and meanings which occur that you recognise in your daily life as possibly significant,or you can stop listening to the omens and in turn,they will stop coming to you.
So you are given the opportunity to follow your destiny or you can simply retreat from it.
Edited by LobsterSauce (03/23/09 08:56 AM)
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MJF
Human Being
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 1,826
Loc: Between 15 and 45 degrees long...
Last seen: 13 days, 17 hours
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Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
MJF said:
but isn't there freedom in just getting to experience everything and going for the ride? i'm overwhelmed with all the decisions to be made.
no, freedom is having to make choices.
I'm sorry that you can't handle freedom.
being forced to make choices doesn't sound free to me.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: fate/destiny.... [Re: MJF]
#10024946 - 03/23/09 08:56 AM (15 years, 27 days ago) |
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Fuck making decisions. Destiny all the way.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 9 hours
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Re: fate/destiny.... [Re: deCypher]
#10024991 - 03/23/09 09:11 AM (15 years, 27 days ago) |
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Destiny as well for me as well, but not because I dislike the choices in life.
Making day to day decisions is one thing. Making decisions that ultimately change your fate is another. You could choose to miss a business meeting one day, and your new outcome is forever irreversibly changed for the worse, or better. If it's predetermined, you could miss that meeting but you're still going to wind up at the same place. It's placing those unpredictable events into the hands of something greater than yourself, and I would hope that it has the ability to make better decisions than I do.
Just ease of mind in the long run, while still having to make decisions in the world.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: fate/destiny.... [Re: deCypher]
#10025076 - 03/23/09 09:37 AM (15 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Fuck making decisions. Destiny all the way.
Make destiny 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Noteworthy said:
I think its cowardice to ask for your life to be planned out for you
So society and culture haven't planned your life out for you? Pleeease, just because you can hang out in the corner of the cage you choose you think you're free?
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: fate/destiny.... [Re: MJF]
#10028027 - 03/23/09 05:27 PM (15 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
MJF said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
MJF said:
but isn't there freedom in just getting to experience everything and going for the ride? i'm overwhelmed with all the decisions to be made.
no, freedom is having to make choices.
I'm sorry that you can't handle freedom.
being forced to make choices doesn't sound free to me.
No one is forcing you. Choice is just something that has to be done.
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MJF
Human Being
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 1,826
Loc: Between 15 and 45 degrees long...
Last seen: 13 days, 17 hours
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i didn't say anyone was forcing me...
i'm just saying your definition of freedom is lacking.
i think freedom is an illusion.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: fate/destiny.... [Re: MJF]
#10028056 - 03/23/09 05:34 PM (15 years, 27 days ago) |
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Look! freedom
see it's not an illusion.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MJF
Human Being
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 1,826
Loc: Between 15 and 45 degrees long...
Last seen: 13 days, 17 hours
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Re: fate/destiny.... [Re: Icelander]
#10028075 - 03/23/09 05:37 PM (15 years, 27 days ago) |
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: fate/destiny.... [Re: MJF]
#10028081 - 03/23/09 05:37 PM (15 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
MJF said:
i didn't say anyone was forcing me...
i'm just saying your definition of freedom is lacking.
i think freedom is an illusion.
You said being forced to choose isn't freedom. then you say no one is forcing you, i don't get it.
What is lacking with my definition and why is freedom an illusion
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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and why is freedom an illusion
Cause I just made you say that.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MJF
Human Being
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 1,826
Loc: Between 15 and 45 degrees long...
Last seen: 13 days, 17 hours
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when you said no one is forcing me i thought you were referring to a person. the universe could be forcing me to make choices...but all that could be an illusion....and really....the choices i make on a day to day basis are very dull and benign.
your definition of freedom is contradictory to me. "freedom is having to make choices"
to me a better one would be, "the ability to make decisions and do as one pleases without interference/influence of external forces"
which is impossible. also a problem with my definition is that if there were no influences i would think you wouldn't even be able to form an opinion.
so i don't know what's going on. that's why this is all hypothetical.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: fate/destiny.... [Re: MJF]
#10028215 - 03/23/09 05:54 PM (15 years, 27 days ago) |
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Well you were correct in your interpretation to some extent. That is to say that you do have to make choices but when you say force it implies coercion. An example being you can either eat or you can not eat but you have to choose one of them. Do you see what i'm getting at?
I agree with the issues with your definition because if there are no consequences being free is almost pointless. I guess I should have added that freedom is the ability to make a choice with consequences, like having risk.
If you can do whatever you want all the time without any risk, is that really freedom? I would say not.
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MJF
Human Being
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 1,826
Loc: Between 15 and 45 degrees long...
Last seen: 13 days, 17 hours
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Quote:
learningtofly said:
Well you were correct in your interpretation to some extent. That is to say that you do have to make choices but when you say force it implies coercion. An example being you can either eat or you can not eat but you have to choose one of them. Do you see what i'm getting at?
I agree with the issues with your definition because if there are no consequences being free is almost pointless. I guess I should have added that freedom is the ability to make a choice with consequences, like having risk.
If you can do whatever you want all the time without any risk, is that really freedom? I would say not.
my idea of freedom is too fantastical and unrealistic to exist in this world.
but what you describe as freedom to me shouldn't be called freedom. when you call it freedom it gives it something it doesn't deserve. inflates it, in almost a deceptive way.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: fate/destiny.... [Re: MJF]
#10030212 - 03/23/09 11:01 PM (15 years, 26 days ago) |
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Yer I dunno about that last line... the way that we end up justifying freedom is different to what freedom it. Freedom is your ability to do as you will. The level of freedom we have involves the number of options available to us and how they relate to our will, or what we want.
IF you could do whatever you wanted all the time without any risk, you would have total freedom. This never happens though. Our options are always limited by our physical presence in our body on earth.
Here is a catch of freedom: Someone can give you options that you would not be able to access without them. This can seem like greater freedom, but it is only freedom within their authority. There might be an option that is most beneficial to people. However there might be more options less beneficial to them, or even detrimental to them, that are presented to them, in the absence of the most beneficial option.
Here we have a case of greater freedom, but that freedom is not worth as much as the limited freedom someone would get if they were offered one option but that option was the best one.
US is very 'free' because people have lots of options. However they are also less free because their options generally do not include what is best for them.
Ultimate freedom is having any option you want
But we are intrinsically limited by our abilities to instantiate the option, so if left to our own devices, some people can end up rather not-free - because they do not have the sorts of intelligences needed to make options available to them.
But I wouldn't say that freedom has to do with consequences? where does this idea come from exactly? Isnt that more to do with how you determine the importance/functionality of certain freedom? Perhaps you dont think freedom is intrinsically valuable but is valuable when there are potential negative consequences?
Freedom gives us potential to learn, and perhaps riskless freedom does not provide us with this benefit as much... but for any freedom, there will be the risk that you fail at doing whatever you do. So if this is true then there is no point to freedom without risk, but that is because there is no such thing as freedom without risk.
But you can't do whatever you want all the time without risk, because having no risk involves someone else protecting you from risk (the universe is inherently full of risk) and this means you will have to do what they want, at least some of the time
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SlashOZ
:D
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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We have free will.
Sometime it feels like fee will because of the need for so much money to go/do most these days.
Of course society sets us up for a certain kind of life. Within the we are still free to do as we will but if you haven't noticed its much easier to get along if you fit in, for lack of a better term.
However, you can choose to step outside the norm and do your own thing. Lots of entrepreneurs and famous leaders started that way. There are also the many that you never hear about but who none the less lived happily.
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"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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