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Offlinex2and2makes5
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Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration
    #9992011 - 03/17/09 09:53 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration

Quote:

WASHINGTON – The Obama administration will endorse a U.N. declaration calling for the worldwide decriminalization of homosexuality that then-President George W. Bush had refused to sign, The Associated Press has learned.
U.S. officials said Tuesday they had notified the declaration's French sponsors that the administration wants to be added as a supporter. The Bush administration was criticized in December when it was the only western government that refused to sign on.

The move was made after an interagency review of the Bush administration's position on the nonbinding document, which was signed by all 27 European Union members as well as Japan, Australia, Mexico and three dozen other countries, the officials said.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because Congress was still being notified of the decision. They said the administration had decided to sign the declaration to demonstrate that the United States supports human rights for all.
"The United States is an outspoken defender of human rights and critic of human rights abuses around the world," said one official.

"As such, we join with the other supporters of this statement and we will continue to remind countries of the importance of respecting the human rights of all people in all appropriate international fora," the official said.

The official added that the United States was concerned about "violence and human rights abuses against gay, lesbian, transsexual and bisexual individuals" and was also "troubled by the criminalization of sexual orientation in many countries."

"In the words of the United States Supreme Court, the right to be free from criminalization on the basis of sexual orientation 'has been accepted as an integral part of human freedom'," the official said.

Gay rights and other groups had criticized the Bush administration when it refused to sign the declaration when it was presented at the United Nations on Dec. 19. U.S. officials said then that the U.S. opposed discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation but that parts of the declaration raised legal questions that needed further review.




This makes me pretty happy to see, however I'm curious (and I'm sure a few of you guys will have no trouble filling me in) about the potential squashing of states rights over this one, as that was the supposed basis for the Bush administration rejecting it. Is the issue simply that some states allow discrimination based on sexual orientation and that this would take that choice away from them?


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration [Re: x2and2makes5]
    #9992953 - 03/18/09 01:47 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Well, states don't have the right to discriminate based on race. Human rights trump states' rights.

But this declaration is only symbolic. I doubt it'll change anything.


--------------------
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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration [Re: zouden]
    #9993041 - 03/18/09 02:23 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Human rights trump state's rights?  What does that mean?  morally or legally?  Morally you are just saying "this is good" and legally its not the way things go in the US (we follow the law and I don't believe gays have been determined to be people under the fourteenth amendment yet, basically, or their discrimination has been held to be equal)


I'm thinking this reporting may be a bit poor.  Looking into this it seemed teh vatican as well as the US didn't endorse it due to some requirement for people to be treated equally (I know its nonbinding).


It seems this article, therefore, creates a pretty biased view towards the US and bush as it only mentioned the criminalization.

Quote:


WASHINGTON – The Obama administration will endorse a U.N. declaration calling for the worldwide decriminalization of homosexuality that then-President George W. Bush had refused to sign, The Associated Press has learned.




If I'm correct that the decleration does much more than the above I think its pretty egregious of the reporter to write teh story in such a way- it acts like bush and the US opposed a measure to stop killing gays or jailing them.  Anyone else think this is pretty crappy reporting for both the obvious inferences and the failure to state what this decleration is even about?

In other news let me know if anyone can figure out what the decleration is called- I looked at many articles and couldn't find wtf the title is nor a link, about on par with typical reporting.


The UN's website was similarly unhelpful.  You go to the human rights section and literally like 50% of the links give you a 404 error.  This is a major area of the UN and their website is pretty much nonfunctional beyonds the title page- dead links abound.  I guess I shouldn't have expected more : /

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration [Re: johnm214]
    #9993054 - 03/18/09 02:30 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The UN website has been a complete nightmare to navigate for as long as I've had an internet connection. Every so often they revamp it, but it never results in an improvement, it just results in more dead links.

The uselessness of their website is a perfect metaphor for the uselessness of the organization itself.

And yes... of course the article is a piece of shit. It's an Associated Press article, so no surprise there. If we're lucky, some other news organization will pick up the story and run with it and we can find out what's actually going on.





Phred


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration [Re: johnm214]
    #9993200 - 03/18/09 03:36 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Human rights trump state's rights?  What does that mean?  morally or legally?  Morally you are just saying "this is good" and legally its not the way things go in the US (we follow the law and I don't believe gays have been determined to be people under the fourteenth amendment yet, basically, or their discrimination has been held to be equal)





I mean morally - legally of course states' rights trump human rights (hence the need for the civil rights movement last century). But if the people decide to protect gays the way they blacks are, then it can be done on a federal (constitution) level and there's nothing the states can do about it. I think that is a good thing.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
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You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration [Re: zouden]
    #9993271 - 03/18/09 03:59 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
But if the people decide to protect gays the way they blacks are, then it can be done on a federal (constitution) level and there's nothing the states can do about it.




Wait... you mean gays aren't covered by the constitution already? Where is this "nothing written here applies to gays" exemption?

Oh... you mean make them special!

What a crock of shit.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #9993463 - 03/18/09 05:43 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Special in the way that people of different races and genders are special. And by 'special', I mean 'equal to straight white males'.

Edit: and in any case, since when does the constitution provide benefits without specifying them? It required an amendment (actually several) to protect the rights of black people.

Edited by zouden (03/18/09 05:51 AM)

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration [Re: zouden]
    #9993565 - 03/18/09 06:36 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I think the criticisms of what you said are unfounded.


It shouldn't have required the fourteenth amendment, though its a great amendment.  Slavery and the jim crowe laws (their equivalents before the 14th where there wasn't even a pretense of nondiscrimination, just don't know what else to call them) were a violation of due process, a taking of liberty and property.  But people like to "interpret" the constitution and get whatever they want out of it.

So the fourteenth should absolutely cover gays, but they make up ways to not cover them in certain areas, such as ruling the group isn't people (not really but the 14th covers people and that's the only conclusion you can draw if the court won't recognize the class, more nonsense) or the discrimination isn't unequal somehow.  This is percisely the reason we should demand the law be enforced as written and not bent to accomplish whatever we want at the moment.  It is unfair and it unmores the government from the law.  (especially when people want to just ignore or twist amendments they dont like, like the second or decide the first doesn't cover 'that kind' of speech or whatever)



Phred, interesting to hear I'm not the only one having issues.  I was just shocked.  Like seriously, 50% of the links on the human rights portion is utterly broken.  It was impossible to navigate at all.  I was shocked.  I mean how much money do they get and they can't even get their links to point the correct way (or remove them)?


I don't mean to harp on it, but that just seems ridiculous.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration [Re: johnm214]
    #9993751 - 03/18/09 08:09 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The motion to improve the UN website was vetoed by Russia and now it's stuck in committee


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration [Re: zouden]
    #9995346 - 03/18/09 02:09 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Phred LOLZ@zouden

Heh. Good one. Excellent, in fact.




Phred


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration [Re: zouden]
    #9996946 - 03/18/09 06:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Special in the way that people of different races and genders are special. And by 'special', I mean 'equal to straight white males'.

Edit: and in any case, since when does the constitution provide benefits without specifying them? It required an amendment (actually several) to protect the rights of black people.



Actually, it didn't. They were already covered. Or can you show me the section that states otherwise?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #9999287 - 03/19/09 04:39 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Black people were already covered? Then how come they couldn't vote?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration [Re: zouden]
    #9999309 - 03/19/09 05:03 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

> Black people were already covered? Then how come they couldn't vote?

Same reason women couldn't vote... a flawed interpretation of what was already written.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration [Re: Seuss]
    #9999316 - 03/19/09 05:08 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Fair enough. Then perhaps we should reinterpret the law so that gay people can marry, and file joint tax returns, and visit each other in hospital, and adopt children.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration [Re: zouden]
    #9999328 - 03/19/09 05:16 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

> Then perhaps we should reinterpret the law so that gay people can marry, and file joint tax returns, and visit each other in hospital, and adopt children.

I agree completely.  It is insane that the courts support law that discriminates against homosexual people.  For the same reason, I am against 'hate crime' laws and the like that discriminate against non-xyz (minority, etc) people.  The law should treat everybody the same, regardless of race, religion, orientation, etc.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration [Re: Seuss]
    #10002683 - 03/19/09 05:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

yep.


Zouden, it wasn't that black people were covered, its that black people were people.  And the fifth amendment says this:

Quote:

nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation





Now tell me how telling a black person that he can't use a white bathroom isn't restricting his liberty without due process of law?  He was under no court order and had no due process, it is illegal.

Same with slavery.  If the law is ruling someone is a slave and that he doesn't have the rights of everyone else than they must provide due process of law.  Slavery laws did not, therefore they were allready illegal.  I don't think the fifth amendment was held to apply to the states back during slavery though, cuz I think it only got there after the fourteenth, but that is basically the argument.


Same with the state constitutions that usually copy the federal on this point.

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration [Re: Seuss]
    #10002784 - 03/19/09 05:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Then perhaps we should reinterpret the law so that gay people can marry, and file joint tax returns, and visit each other in hospital, and adopt children.

I agree completely.  It is insane that the courts support law that discriminates against homosexual people.  For the same reason, I am against 'hate crime' laws and the like that discriminate against non-xyz (minority, etc) people.  The law should treat everybody the same, regardless of race, religion, orientation, etc.




Exactly.  Precisely.

"Hate crime" laws criminalize thoughts rather than the associated action.  They're just as morally wrong as Jim Crow laws.


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Re: Obama to sign UN gay rights declaration [Re: TGRR]
    #10002804 - 03/19/09 05:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Well at least we agree on that one, though I would say the problem is more an equal protection argument.  You cannot single out a group and say that killing them is worse than another (or at all different).


Really its both illegal and impractical and all around bad.




Equal means equal, let's keep it that way and move in that direction, always.

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