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Offlinefancypants
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oven drying (what's the big deal?)
    #9941450 - 03/09/09 06:24 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Ive read up a lot on oven drying on here, and the general consensus seems to be that youll destroy the potency of your yield by accidently getting the temperature too hot.  I have a dog who knows a vampire living in Australia that just wedges a meat thermometer between the oven door that lets him see how hot the inside of the oven is.  If it gets over 160, he turns the oven off, no big deal.  It seems like some people tend to get too defensive about their preferred teks on here on occasion.

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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: fancypants]
    #9941464 - 03/09/09 06:27 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

I also question how much heat psilocybin/psilocin can withstand before decomposition. I think it is much higher then the general consensus here.


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InvisiblePhraggle
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: LightShedder]
    #9941483 - 03/09/09 06:32 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

SWIM has dried in an over set to 180 (the lowest oven setting that was possible) with the door open about 4 inches (10 cm). They didn't look as nice as slow dried ones, but noone complained about the potency.


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OfflineCascadian
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: LightShedder]
    #9941486 - 03/09/09 06:32 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Ovens also heat very unevenly.  Sure the probe might read 160, but what about those coils that glow red every time they kick on when the oven senses it needs to heat up again?  An oven doesnt go 'ok, get the coils to 160 and stay there'.  Its more like "ON FULL BLAST" then turns off. 

So if you had your mushrooms next to said coils and they roasted a bit on the bottom... thats a fair bit closer to the point psilocybin would break down.

And I fully endorse dehydrating mushrooms with heated food dehydrators.  Ovens just arent made for that.

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: fancypants]
    #9941493 - 03/09/09 06:33 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

.

Edited by green_titan (04/01/09 11:51 PM)

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Offlinefancypants
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: fancypants]
    #9941496 - 03/09/09 06:33 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

From what I've read on here and elsewhere, 160F seems to be considered the cap on safe heating.  I've also heard people say that they prefer not to heat about 90F, but that seems a little ridiculous.  In Texas, shroom season is from around the end of March to the beginning of August, and I know those naturally occurring shrooms are being exposed to temps above 90F during that period.

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Offlinefancypants
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: Cascadian]
    #9941510 - 03/09/09 06:36 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Cascadian said:
Ovens also heat very unevenly.  Sure the probe might read 160, but what about those coils that glow red every time they kick on when the oven senses it needs to heat up again?  An oven doesnt go 'ok, get the coils to 160 and stay there'.  Its more like "ON FULL BLAST" then turns off. 

So if you had your mushrooms next to said coils and they roasted a bit on the bottom... thats a fair bit closer to the point psilocybin would break down.

And I fully endorse dehydrating mushrooms with heated food dehydrators.  Ovens just arent made for that.




You make a good point about the uneven heating, but I try to compensate by keeping them on the uppermost rack away from the coils (the upper coils don't kick in on low settings with my oven).  But, yeah, if I put the thermometer down by the coils, we're talking 180F+ temps.

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Offlinefancypants
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: fancypants]
    #9941528 - 03/09/09 06:39 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Also, there is another downside to using an oven, and that's that it requires almost constant monitoring of the thermometer.  Sometimes ovens enjoy bursts of extreme heat for no reason whatsoever, and so you have to check the temp pretty regularly and sometimes shut the oven off if it starts getting too hot.  But, hey, that's fine by me.  I've got six hours to kill, watching a thermometer and looking at these forums.

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OfflineCascadian
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: fancypants]
    #9941547 - 03/09/09 06:42 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

80 °C (176 °F) - which is less than a hot day in California




Dude, if it was 176 degrees Fahrenheit in California.... I think you might be confused... a little...


But otherwise, yeah... its been shown time and again that food-dehydrator-dried mushrooms are damned potent.  I think of heat decomposition of psilocybin as a bell curve (because the melting point of something isnt necessarily when it breaks down into other chemicals... (liquid or solid mercury would fuck you up just as bad))

Maybe you lose 5% potency by drying at 120 degrees.  Maybe you lose 10% at 160.  But Id be willing to bet your potency loss goes up exponentially as the temperatures get much higher than that.

Keep in mind that mushroom potency varies by much more than 10%, with multispore you can be talking potency differences of upwards of 300% (link).

Don't sweat it.

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Offlinefancypants
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: Cascadian]
    #9941572 - 03/09/09 06:48 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Cascadian said:
Quote:

80 �C (176 �F) - which is less than a hot day in California




Dude, if it was 176 degrees Fahrenheit in California.... I think you might be confused... a little...


But otherwise, yeah... its been shown time and again that food-dehydrator-dried mushrooms are damned potent.  I think of heat decomposition of psilocybin as a bell curve (because the melting point of something isnt necessarily when it breaks down into other chemicals... (liquid or solid mercury would fuck you up just as bad))

Maybe you lose 5% potency by drying at 120 degrees.  Maybe you lose 10% at 160.  But Id be willing to bet your potency loss goes up exponentially as the temperatures get much higher than that.

Keep in mind that mushroom potency varies by much more than 10%, with multispore you can be talking potency differences of upwards of 300% (link).

Don't sweat it.




That link makes perfect sense as to why you should crumble up your shrooms before ingesting them.  Makes for a more even potency of what you take from your flush.

I don't know if I agree with the bell curve theory, though.  If a molecule breaks down at a certain temp, then it breaks down at that temp.  Nothing below it should effect it.  It's like saying that ice isn't as icy at 31F than at 14F.

EDIT: I do agree on a bell curve once the breakdown temp is reached, though.  200 would most certainly be worse than 170.

Edited by fancypants (03/09/09 06:56 PM)

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Invisiblefreespeech
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: fancypants]
    #9941582 - 03/09/09 06:51 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

fancypants said:
That link makes perfect sense as to why you should crumble up your shrooms before ingesting them.  Makes for a more even potency of what you take from your flush.




:thumbup::thumbup:
Exactly.

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OfflineCascadian
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: fancypants]
    #9941612 - 03/09/09 06:57 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Thats not really a jerk move - you buy mushrooms on their overall weight.  If you got all caps you might be surprised with a stronger trip than anticipated.  If you got all stems you probably wouldnt even notice a difference.

I dont really buy that links findings that caps are 30% more potent.... based on a trial with 6 mushrooms.

They might be slightly more potent, but i still feel like eating say 3.5 grams of cap+stem would get you higher than even say 3 grams of just caps.

Disregard those findings:  but realize that in their study of six mushrooms the weakest was only half as strong as the strongest.  Ive seen charts elsewhere that I now cant find that showed samples of cubes ranging from .3% to over 1% psilocybin.  If youre using multispore to grow, these potency ranges could exist within a single flush.

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Offlinefancypants
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: Cascadian]
    #9941636 - 03/09/09 07:02 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

The info's greatly appreciated.  This is indeed multispore, so, I suppose, either crumble/grind up the dried fruits, or just hold onto my hat when I eat some full ones and prepare to possibly be surprised/flipped out.

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OfflineCascadian
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: fancypants]
    #9941718 - 03/09/09 07:16 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

I don't know if I agree with the bell curve theory, though.  If a molecule breaks down at a certain temp, then it breaks down at that temp.  Nothing below it should effect it.  It's like saying that ice isn't as icy at 31F than at 14F.




While I agree with the sentiment... we don't know at what temperature these molecules break down.  The only facts available to us are their 'melting point's. 

Just because your mushrooms (or the psilocybin inside them) havent melted yet doesnt mean you havent toasted the magic out of them.  Conversely - just because something is now a liquid doesnt mean it no longer will affect you.  Like - when you vaporize thc - it's now a gas, and is going to fuck you up.  But it breaks down if you roast it with fire.

We just dont know enough about how psilocybin breaks down to make any clear rules, but its easy to just keep some common sense.  Dont worry about getting 100% potency out of the ULTIMATE STRONGEST MUSHROOM.  Just keep your wits about you and know the average.


Quote:

People know that LSD is a very unstable molecule, and sensitive to heat and light. It melts (and presumably breaks down) at 80 °C (176 °F) - which is less than a hot day in California. They erroneously assume that all psychedelics are just as sensitive, and believe the melting point of psilocin is equally low, when it in fact melts at 173–176 °C (343–349 °F)



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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: fancypants]
    #9941741 - 03/09/09 07:19 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

I would advise against crumbling up all your shrooms. It will make them start re-absorbing moisture faster. The advantages you guys are naming such as a more "even potency" don't seem too advantageous. I would be willing to bet that if you took a whole cap/stem mushroom and ate it after letting it sit around for 4 weeks you would trip harder (more potency) then if you were to eat it after letting it sit there broken up into shake for 4 weeks. If you are going to eat all the crumbled shake immediately or within a few weeks I'm sure it wouldn't matter but for long-term storage(5+weeks) shake is not desirable IMO.


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Offlinefancypants
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: Cascadian]
    #9941770 - 03/09/09 07:24 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

It's a shame we can't know more about these substances.  I suppose the drug war is a whole other debate on an entirely different forum, though.  This is my first grow, so I'm not so much worried about getting the best results, just results that work. 

Btw, I've found that I really enjoy this hobby, and can't wrap my mind around the fact that the things we're doing and discussing are against the law, nor that more information isn't available about the substances we're working with.  It's a good thing the internet exists, or we'd probably all probably be screwed if we tried doing this stuff.

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: Cascadian]
    #9941957 - 03/09/09 08:03 PM (15 years, 22 days ago)

.

Edited by green_titan (04/01/09 11:51 PM)

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OfflineDaedramaster
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: Green_T]
    #9942067 - 03/09/09 08:29 PM (15 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

I don't know if I agree with the bell curve theory, though.  If a molecule breaks down at a certain temp, then it breaks down at that temp.  Nothing below it should effect it.  It's like saying that ice isn't as icy at 31F than at 14F.




What you failed to note with your idea here is that temperature is an average of the kinetic energies of the molecules of the given substance.
Naturally, the actual kinetic energies of each molecule are not all equal to the temperature measured. If you plot a graph of the energy of a single molecule vs the number of molecules that have that energy in the substance for any given temperature of that substance, the graph will have a distribution that looks similar to a bell curve.

It will have the majority of the molecules at the center with others greater or lesser than the average. Those ones that are at the greater end are the molecules that would break down even though the temperature is less than what it would take for all of the molecules to break down.

Edit: Also, I think that the reason why some of the active alkaloids would be broken down is the oxidation of the molecule. Whenever the temperature of the reactants are increased for a redox reaction(ie the oxidation of the actives) the reaction rate is increased. That means that the increase of the temperature of the oxygen in the air makes it easier for it to react with the actives.

I don't know whether this increase in the rate of reaction is significant or not but it does exist to some extent.


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Edited by Daedramaster (03/09/09 08:38 PM)

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Offlineano
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: Daedramaster] * 1
    #10112952 - 04/05/09 08:50 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I was looking for some info on drying temps and this thread pops up first in the search so i figured i'd add this link so people know what the temperature tolerances are of alkaloids.

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_chemistry.shtml


Oven drying seems to work damn well for me btw. :smile:

Set oven to 170f, leave door open half way. Cracker dry within 4 hours. No loss of potency.


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Edited by ano (04/05/09 08:52 PM)

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InvisibleDoodle
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Re: oven drying (what's the big deal?) [Re: ano]
    #10113517 - 04/05/09 10:33 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Oven drying can be done with out potency loss, it has been proven. Agar, a highly respected member of this community that used to frequent the forums all the time said once that the best way to do it is to set the oven on the warm setting and open the door and keep a box fan blowing in it. here is a thread were he talks about it along with some other comments and a link in it to another thread about oven drying.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5512185#5512185
just buy a dehydrator though, ovens can vary in temp and the one time it gets to hot you may have a large amount in there, no reason risking it.

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