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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
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Logic is not all it's cracked up to be
#9666531 - 01/23/09 05:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Don't get me wrong, I'm a friend of logic.
But I've noticed that people so often use logic as their foundation. It is the litmus test for true or false, it is even used as the machinery to build ideas. And they disregard others who do not speak logically, or even if they speak a different language of logic.
I speak a second language of logic. But mostly I only talk to my self in it.
Each object in my world is not named with a word. It's named with a complex set of emotions, bodily sensations, and other kinds of feelings. These feelings are not applied randomly, but are based on intrinsic attributes of the object.
For example, a long stick would feel long, and a short one would feel really short. Everything would be marked by a specific set of emotional and physical attributes that would be felt.
Using this system of specific emotional markers, one than examine them and their relations and associations in a whole new way... one could sit back, observe the 'feelings' evoked by the objects, then compare how they feel and observe interesting things about their relations. A key might 'feel' like it fits in a lock, numbers might 'feel' like they are in some kind of spatial order which could in turn allow a unique method of computation. When two concepts 'feel' like they are related and it's unexpected, the revelation would start as a 'feeling', but would then trigger logic and become an idea.
This actually happens and is called intuition.
When you get an idea out of nowhere - when you have a feeling about something but don't know why.
Intuition isn't just some vague guessing ability but is born out of the same processes as logic. Since the emotional processing can be some kind of a complex summation task, or some unfamiliar subtle emotional tasks, it can be difficult to immediately trace what connections create what idea.
The emotional system is not perfect (at least for me) and so it can sometimes produce things that 'feel' right, but that aren't actually right. But that doesn't give grounds refusing to use such an interesting and useful system, or the ideas of those using it.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Freedom]
#9666579 - 01/23/09 05:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Interesting. I'm not sure how I would apply that to, say, mushroom taxonomy. On the other hand, I have noticed that when trying to remember an actor in a movie I am watching I can recall whether I liked the character in the other movie though I may not remember the role or anything else. I am left with a feeling, instead of facts.
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Indigenous
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Freedom]
#9666580 - 01/23/09 05:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Logic is fine, people just tend to leave immaterial things out of their logic. Since everyone's intuition is different it makes logic individual and unrepeatable.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Indigenous]
#9666618 - 01/23/09 05:28 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
I'm not sure how I would apply that to, say, mushroom taxonomy
I don't know much about mushroom taxonomy, but if they categorize morphologically, chemically, and genetically, then you could have seperate emotion tags for each taxonomy category.
Morphological feelings can be very easy - just feel a space in the shape of the mushroom, with emphasis on the key features which make it unique. Spore color could have a feeling as well. If you think of genetics as an alphabetic code, then you could take whatever feeling is associated with that code, and manipulate it by whatever feelings are associated with what makes the gene unique - does it produce psilocybin for example, and do you have and emotional associations with that?
it can really work for anything
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Freedom
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Indigenous]
#9666657 - 01/23/09 05:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Indigenous said: Logic is fine, people just tend to leave immaterial things out of their logic. Since everyone's intuition is different it makes logic individual and unrepeatable.
seems this underlies everything, since the when and where logic is applied, focused, and used to achieve things is not decided logically, but emotionally. Motivation is inherently emotional, and it supports the logic process towards some direction that you feel is right.
The direction of the motivation for the use of logic is often decided culturally. When different cultures are at emotional odds with each other conflict arises.
Additionally logic fails because our minds are not large enough to accommodate all the logical possibilities. There maybe 10,000 possible solutions to a problem, but our logic cannot process them all. So it picks which ones to look at and goes with what works (when logic itself isn't being manipulated by emotion).
So even in a best case scenario, ideas will diverge because of the sheer number of possible good outcomes that cannot be all logically evaluated.
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vaportrail
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Freedom]
#9666714 - 01/23/09 05:45 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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I would tend to agree with you about this. Good post.
"Surgically splitting the connection between the two cerebral hemisphere made it possible to observe each side of the brain separately. It was demonstrated that the left hemisphere specializes in verbal, logical and linear thinking and cannot see the woods for the trees, so to speak, while the right hemisphere specializes in holistic, visual and spatial perceptions and senses the whole forest. In addition to the perception of the whole gestalt, the right hemisphere seems to represent feelings, speaking an 'affective language.'" - The Right Brain Experience, Marilee Zdenek
Have you ever had a feeling about something but failed to act because it seemed like you had no logical reason to feel it? Later it becomes clear that your gut feeling was right. I am learning to trust this intuitive "felt sense," because it appears faster in mind and, when I pick it apart, contains a surprisingly logical consideration of the relationship between elements within a somewhat larger scheme than if I were to use slooww deductive reasoning. I've found that expanding my vocabulary is helpful because it allows me to better understand these chunks of emotional or spatial information.
-------------------- and the hippos were boiled in their tanks
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DroneLore
what is knowing?
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: vaportrail]
#9666754 - 01/23/09 05:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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The primary fault of logic is that it relies on a central axiom: "A cannot exist and simultaneously not exist." This appears self evident, but it cannot be proved with logic.
Logic is still an incredibly useful tool, and the more if there is the better off we are.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Freedom]
#9666795 - 01/23/09 05:59 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Additionally logic fails because our minds are not large enough to accommodate all the logical possibilities. There maybe 10,000 possible solutions to a problem, but our logic cannot process them all.
As I cannot figure out 123,616^181 in my head, therefore math sucks.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Freedom]
#9666876 - 01/23/09 06:15 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: I don't know much about mushroom taxonomy....
Quote:
Freedom said: it can really work for anything
Without understanding the first, you cannot know the second.
*edited for stupidly typing the opposite of the intention.
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Edited by Mr. Mushrooms (01/23/09 06:31 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#9666933 - 01/23/09 06:24 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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I just feel the vibe of a wild mushroom. If it feels friendly, I eat it! (And then apply for a Darwin Award.)
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Ok, story time.
A former close friend of mine used to pick and eat unidentified mushrooms by having an intuitive friend of his "vibe out" whether the mushroom was poisonous or not. I'll leave it to the jury to speculate why this friend is former.
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DieCommie
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Freedom]
#9666959 - 01/23/09 06:30 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Logic is the best. Its the axioms that give you trouble.
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Silversoul
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: DieCommie]
#9666986 - 01/23/09 06:35 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Logic presupposes intuition. That is, our logical premises tend to be arrived at intuitively. So it's not a matter of one versus the other. Rather, logic is built upon intuition.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#9667001 - 01/23/09 06:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said: Ok, story time.
A former close friend of mine used to pick and eat unidentified mushrooms by having an intuitive friend of his "vibe out" whether the mushroom was poisonous or not. I'll leave it to the jury to speculate why this friend is former.
Dewd, where do you think I got the story from? I didn't just make it up, but was 'reading your mind'. Don't tell anyone though. Shhhh!
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Silversoul]
#9667019 - 01/23/09 06:41 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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For that post, I award you four Swamis.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Silversoul]
#9667052 - 01/23/09 06:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: Logic presupposes intuition. That is, our logical premises tend to be arrived at intuitively. So it's not a matter of one versus the other. Rather, logic is built upon intuition.
That's a wonderful statement. Can you apply it to the science of mushroom taxonomy? I have my own thoughts on this but I would like you hear yours.
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daytripper23
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Additionally logic fails because our minds are not large enough to accommodate all the logical possibilities. There maybe 10,000 possible solutions to a problem, but our logic cannot process them all.
As I cannot figure out 123,616^181 in my head, therefore math sucks.
By emphasizing any supposed separation of "math" and "mind", you remind us of human responsibility. But if taken literally, this only fabricates a metaphysical reality. It is not logical, but rather the false substantiation of logic. Math doesn't exist outside your head.
On the other hand, "logic fails", if taken literally, is personifying logic. There is truth to this; logic only exists as a human abstraction, and it is the human that walks away after this. Logic fails, so what shall I try next? But if emphasized in bad faith, to deny personal responsibility, this also is delusional as well: Despite how humane logic is, it is the human that acts, and not the logic. As opposed to a possible false substantiation of logic; taken literally, "logic fails" is a false personification of it.
So what I mean is, either emphasis can result in bad faith. There is no mind and body, form and content, etc. These differentiations are a drive for language, art, and faith, but existence just is what it is.
Edited by daytripper23 (01/23/09 07:40 PM)
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Silversoul
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#9667099 - 01/23/09 06:52 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:
Silversoul said: Logic presupposes intuition. That is, our logical premises tend to be arrived at intuitively. So it's not a matter of one versus the other. Rather, logic is built upon intuition.
That's a wonderful statement. Can you apply it to the science of mushroom taxonomy? I have my own thoughts on this but I would like you hear yours.
Despite my long tenure here, my knowledge of mushroom taxonomy is that of a n00b. But in general, when following the scientific method, the hypothesis is where intuition comes into play. The scientific method can thus be seen as a method for testing intuitions.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Silversoul]
#9667224 - 01/23/09 07:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ok, I was wondering if that is what you were driving at. In mushroom taxonomy you would be looking at a mushroom you found and think, "Damn, that looks like a Psilocybe." That is the hypothesis. (I'm just saying that for those that wouldn't know.) You would then test the hypothesis by running a series of tests. The first one would probably be making a spore print. Along the way you might pinch it to see if it stains blue. After a few tests you would conclude your hypothesis, generated intuitively, was correct.
That said, it is my opinion that the data used to arrive at intuition is merely sensate data collected subconsciously. I don't really know that, of course. I just intuit it.
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Silversoul
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#9667329 - 01/23/09 07:35 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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I tend to think of intuition as essentially pattern-seeking behavior. We begin with perceptions. We then intuit a kind of patterned order to those perceptions. We then logically test if that order makes sense. I think that's why intuition seems to be strengthened by the same substances that cause you to see faces on the carpet.
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