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 AnxietyDrive
Aspiring Psychologist
Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 472
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
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 Science and Spirituality 
#9616873 - 01/15/09 07:16 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Is there a division between science and spirituality, or is all this an illusion created by a person and their personal worldview?
Various books i have read push the idea that science, or more specifically, the scientific worldview, have distorted spirituality and dismissed metaphysical thought as primitive, useless, and unverifiable; however, I am willing to entertain the idea that it is more complex than sometimes portrayed by spiritual or "New Age" scholars, and that some scientists are willing to accept metaphysical ideas as intelligible and noteworthy.
In one book i read entitled "The Cosmic Game" by psychologist Stanislav Grof, the idea is proposed that western science is and has been ignoring evidence because it conflicts with the current worldview, not because it cannot be studied or explored, but because it appears irreducibly complex or implies a spiritual domain. He went on to note that science, like spirituality adheres to its own inherent set of beliefs and guidelines, which has now been labeled and is called scientism. In effect this would loosely define science as a religion.
Personally, i am of the mind that science is a valuable tool in the hands of mankind and do not think of it as a great evil or destroyer of the world; though i do think some people have taken the findings of science way out of context and have concluded that all matters in the here and now including long winded and abstract philosophical problems can be solved with its strict methodology.
I am curious what you guys have to say about this supposed split of worlds, and what your personal views are regarding this discussion.
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No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
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 Indigenous
Stranger
Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 814
Loc: Celestial Realm
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 Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: AnxietyDrive]
#9617684 - 01/15/09 09:21 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
AnxietyDrive said:
Personally, i am of the mind that science is a valuable tool in the hands of mankind and do not think of it as a great evil or destroyer of the world; though i do think some people have taken the findings of science way out of context and have concluded that all matters in the here and now including long winded and abstract philosophical problems can be solved with its strict methodology.
I have to agree with this. A man's gotta know his limitations.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: Indigenous]
#9618081 - 01/15/09 10:24 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think that science and spiritual pursuit are both methods of deepening or flourishing one's understanding of the universe around them.
however, science tries to find out how the world is when we avoid individual people's subjectivities, whereas spirituality seeks to resolve those aspects of the world that each person finds uniquely special and meaningful. or those aspects of the world of meaning which do not directly show their relevance in the physical ordeals of day to day life.
however, when spirituality becomes outsourced and people subscribe to ways of exploring or denoting their spirituality, it becomes a religion and looses the essence of spirituality - the individual journey towards cognitive harmony with the universe
well, thats what I think spirituality is about
but I dont mean to say that anyone who follows religion is a sheep.. people can take on different amounts of religious doctrine and supplant/internalise it with additional unique perspective of the world. In this case, they are limiting their spiritual search to certain aspects of their percieved universe, and leaving other parts of the search up to the dogmas which appeal to them.
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Recondicom
Power of four
Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 226
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: Noteworthy]
#9621138 - 01/16/09 12:58 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Life is an uninterrupted line that in its present form is hundreds of thousands years old. So life goes from father and it takes refuge in mother. I often consider and ponder the anthropological views of sex outside marriage or masturbation as sin even before science made the connection between generations. The sperm is alive… if it does not find refuge it dies. Biblical views of masturbation leading to pornography and homosexuality are well known. Is masturbation or having sex for pleasure the same as abortion? Perhaps we should only have sex when we are sure of procreation; otherwise, we could title the act: intention to commit murder. But, IMO the life line gives an impossible line of sin against the will of God.
Luckily for all sinners (the non repented and the remorseful) our society allows many mind profiles to live in our society… So an atheistic view of the world would allow masturbation as pressure releaser and good for development… and lately homosexuality is another form of social union… and free sex for all is the ticket. As we practice sin the idea of God fuzzes out.
Practically and for the purpose of peace we make laws and provide courts for litigation as to the definition of when life is considered to have rights. So it is illegal to kill a baby after it took its first breath but, it is not illegal to masturbate. Awareness starts around 9 to 10 years old and we protect the incipient intellect from drugs and predators (except if they marry at ten)… “Of age” is 21; then, we become “older” when our brain power rises over the sex power.
“We are all people…aren’t we?” I’m grossed out but I agree.
“Yes sir… They are all people sir”.
IMO society is about the ratio between remorse and freedom. Ying/yang; life/death.
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Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: Recondicom]
#9621169 - 01/16/09 01:04 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I dont think a fetus or baby is a person any more than a cow
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jvm
I knew the pieces fit!
Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 2,031
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio 
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: Recondicom]
#9621181 - 01/16/09 01:06 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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If we find balance with the external and the internal world we will find balance in our lives, as well as a balanced understanding of our world. Until then it's all 'science is right because of blah blah blah blah blah' and 'spirituality is right because of blah blah blah blah blah'. Put them both together to figure out what the hell is going on instead of being swayed to a side. Balance.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: Noteworthy]
#9621194 - 01/16/09 01:09 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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A baby is not a person? How would you define personhood?
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Recondicom
Power of four
Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 226
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: Noteworthy]
#9621220 - 01/16/09 01:13 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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The acorn is the Oak.
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Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: Veritas]
#9621255 - 01/16/09 01:21 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I disclude babies from personhood the same way that I disclude animals
how do you define personhood?
I don't think there is any rigid defining factor.
and if there was, I think it would probably be something like 'generally shows signs of cognition, reaction, conceptual awareness, etc'
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: Noteworthy]
#9621281 - 01/16/09 01:29 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
per⋅son
/ˈpɜrsən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pur-suhn] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a human being, whether man, woman, or child: The table seats four persons.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: Veritas]
#9621297 - 01/16/09 01:33 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
A baby is not a person? How would you define personhood?
I don't know how Noteworthy would define a person or personhood, but SCOTUS has a legal definition. My view on the subject has always been that when an institution seeks to bifurcate the definition of a human being, some human beings will be deprived of some rights. History is replete with examples.
Biology says a human being is a organism with the DNA of a human.
The law says a human being may not be a person.
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Indigenous
Stranger
Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 814
Loc: Celestial Realm
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: Recondicom]
#9621355 - 01/16/09 01:49 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Recondicom said:
Biblical views of masturbation leading to pornography
Pornography leads to masturbation.
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Indigenous
Stranger
Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 814
Loc: Celestial Realm
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: Noteworthy]
#9621383 - 01/16/09 01:55 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said:
I disclude babies from personhood the same way that I disclude animals
how do you define personhood?
I don't think there is any rigid defining factor.
and if there was, I think it would probably be something like 'generally shows signs of cognition, reaction, conceptual awareness, etc'
I guess that would make my dog a person.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: Noteworthy]
#9621597 - 01/16/09 02:42 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said:
I disclude babies from personhood the same way that I disclude animals
how do you define personhood?
I don't think there is any rigid defining factor.
and if there was, I think it would probably be something like 'generally shows signs of cognition, reaction, conceptual awareness, etc'
Have you spent any time around babies? 
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: Veritas]
#9621673 - 01/16/09 03:02 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Does time in M&P count?
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C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 899
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: Veritas]
#9622045 - 01/16/09 04:24 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Everyone has their own opinion on life, but it seems to me there are enough facts to qualify as one answer. All life needs to be nurtured, how can you decide at what point(during the nurturing phase), that life is not life? Some say this is a philosophical question, but is it really? It seems to have turned into a political/religious question, and the only answer is scientific.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: C.M. Mann]
#9622146 - 01/16/09 04:42 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't think that we can definitively answer the question "when does life become life." However, for legal purposes we must distinguish between human life with individual rights & human life without individual rights.
The claim that a baby is not a person seems bizarre to me, as I have spent so much time around babies. They are clearly people, with individual preferences & personalities. They take in the world around them, and make new decisions based upon what they have learned. They form emotional bonds with their caregivers, and openly express affection.
For someone else, the claim that a fertilized human egg is not a person might seem bizarre. 
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Indigenous
Stranger
Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 814
Loc: Celestial Realm
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: Veritas]
#9622155 - 01/16/09 04:43 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
The claim that a baby is not a person seems bizarre to me, as I have spent so much time around babies. They are clearly people, with individual preferences & personalities. They take in the world around them, and make new decisions based upon what they have learned. They form emotional bonds with their caregivers, and openly express affection.
Just like little dogs.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: Indigenous]
#9622238 - 01/16/09 04:58 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Have you spent any time around babies? Or dogs, for that matter? They are not much alike. Primates and canines are very distinct species.
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Indigenous
Stranger
Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 814
Loc: Celestial Realm
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Re: Science and Spirituality [Re: Veritas]
#9622280 - 01/16/09 05:06 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Only dogs, this one in particular.
I just found the standards to be a person in this thread to be pretty low.
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