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OfflineNeuron
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Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have?
    #9574652 - 01/08/09 11:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I was talking to my Neuroscience professor today after class. We were talking about ego death, a topic which I brought up.

He laughed at me, and looked a bit confused. I asked why and he told me that he didnt believe that he had an ego. He said he believed that he has an illusion of himself.

I then said, what about your "self"? You know yourself, you know what you like and what you dont like.

He responded, "No, I do not know what I like and dont like. I know what my brain is telling me, but I myself do not know anything."

Was he fucking with me with a deadpan serious expression? Or is this guy crazy?

What are your thoughts?


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: Neuron]
    #9574690 - 01/08/09 11:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

he thinks he has no ego?

sounds like a professional bullshitter.

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OfflineAnxietyDrive
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: deranger]
    #9574784 - 01/08/09 11:46 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

In the spirit of Mckenna I think that the ego was a development of a wrong turn in evolution. A leftover that has staked a claim on human perception, which also caused the Fall of Man -- the signature story of mans descent into history.

If we can accept the idea that our ancestors were  mushroom munchers, and the idea that the mushroom undoubtedly dissolved the ego, than we can undoubtedly assume that no such noun, "ego", exits.

To me the "ego" is an aberration of the psyche. This is why i think the unconscious was actually created by culture, and was not a previously existing phenomenon.

Of course, take me with a grain of salt -- this is my own personal, silly believe system, based off of a zero sum of factual evidence.

It just makes me smile. :smile:

"culture is not your friend" --Terence Mckenna


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Edited by AnxietyDrive (01/08/09 11:54 PM)

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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9574817 - 01/08/09 11:56 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AnxietyDrive said:
If we can accept the idea that our ancestors were  mushroom munchers, and the idea that the mushroom undoubtedly dissolved the ego, than we can undoubtedly assume that no such noun, "ego", exits.




it is true that it only exists as an idea.  not to mention many of us have differing interpretations of the word, which pretty much makes it pointless to use.

but who is to say such an idea has no relevance in accordance with that which is real?

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OfflineNeuron
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: Neuron]
    #9574823 - 01/08/09 11:57 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I simply do not understand this man.

How can ego not exist? Perhaps I am mistaking ego with 'self', but really- we are the individuals doing the perceiving. He also told me that he believed EVERYTHING was pre-determined and that there is no free will.

What are your guys' beliefs on free will?

Thank you.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: Neuron]
    #9574829 - 01/08/09 11:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Neuron said:
What are your guys' beliefs on free will?




i prefer "freer will" :stoned:

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OfflineNeuron
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: deranger]
    #9574935 - 01/09/09 12:19 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

at least that makes perfectly valid sense.

but how can there be zero free will?


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: Neuron]
    #9574998 - 01/09/09 12:29 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

in my experience there is always more freedom of will to attain, there is never a final freedom in which i can attain.  perhaps absolute free will is possible, i don't deny that.

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Invisiblenalbano34
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: deranger]
    #9575084 - 01/09/09 12:54 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You can bend and twist shit to sound like some supersidious fucktard but that professor is just fucking with you bro. We sure as shit have a perception of ourselves. Why does the guy go to work and teach, because his "brain" tells him too. BULLSHIT. He "freely" chose that line of work. he is fucked on both counts right there...lol.

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Invisiblenalbano34
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: nalbano34]
    #9575100 - 01/09/09 12:58 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I should have added that in actuallity ( if we assume existence is tangible things ) then it in fact does not truly. We don't bury egos from any account I can confirm. If in fact you believe that ego is bound to a spirit that is left after death then it would I guess. It can be so overly analyzed. I could probably sit here and write a damned essay right now on those 2 thoughts.

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InvisibleGerman Kahuna
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: Neuron]
    #9575110 - 01/09/09 01:00 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

He was just describing himself from a purely scientific point of view.

Quote:

No, I do not know what I like and don't like. I know what my brain is telling me, but I myself do not know anything.



To take that further, you could simply view us to be a collection of chemicals interacting. At that point any perception of an individual ego becomes completely irrelevant.


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"Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".

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Invisiblenalbano34
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: German Kahuna]
    #9575129 - 01/09/09 01:05 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

German Kahuna said:
He was just describing himself from a purely scientific point of view.

Quote:

No, I do not know what I like and don't like. I know what my brain is telling me, but I myself do not know anything.



To take that further, you could simply view us to be a collection of chemicals interacting. At that point any perception of an individual ego becomes completely irrelevant.



exactly, but intentionally sidestepping the actual question it would seem. maybe I was harsh there, but that just drives me mad that the guys teacher would not even give it thought.

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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: German Kahuna]
    #9575199 - 01/09/09 01:25 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

German Kahuna said:
He was just describing himself from a purely scientific point of view.

Quote:

No, I do not know what I like and don't like. I know what my brain is telling me, but I myself do not know anything.



To take that further, you could simply view us to be a collection of chemicals interacting. At that point any perception of an individual ego becomes completely irrelevant.




Viewing us as merely a collection of chemicals interacting is quite the assumption.

What is "us" or "I" anyways?  The truth is, nobody has the slightest clue.  People with a "purely scientific point of view" can think they hold all the answers, but in reality they are fooling themselves.

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Offlinetripp23
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: Neuron]
    #9575530 - 01/09/09 04:06 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I understand what your professor is tryin to say.  Im not too sure about the first part about no ego existing but the second part he is simply saying... (he does not know what he likes and doesnt like)  He says his brain is telling him to like this or dislike that.  He means that his mind is only telling his true self to like this or not to like that.  He is saying that this form of life is only temporary and we simply do not understand our true self.  He is saying possible,.. that this form of presence could be a short stay and after death, we return to our true energy or presence.  Your true energy or presence may be completely different than from how you understand this one.  This is just a physical form of your energy, a temporary bond to the physical world to well.. live.  Im not too positive how one could not have an ego.. even an inatimate object has an ego such as a wall.  The wall maybe red and rough, that is its ego, its personality, that is how it exists, thats who it is, that is the traits of it just like the special properties that make up you. You may have a small or big nose, that is part of your ego.  imo, to not have an ego, you cant exist. So that doesnt really make sense..



Quote:

Neuron said:
at least that makes perfectly valid sense.

but how can there be zero free will?





One can have zero free will because everything you do, say, eat... everything that you may perform maybe how its meant to be, thus, you have absolutely no free will because those things are supposed to happen.  If one may have free will.  Things are supposed to go as how you make them go, not how its supposed to be.  I wonder how life is not supposed to happen certain ways.. i dont see how its possible.. i mean.. everything is supposed to happen the way it does, why else are we here?


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Invisibleawesomebastard
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: Neuron]
    #9575533 - 01/09/09 04:14 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

He's just a pragmatic or at least sounds like one to me.


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."

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Invisibleawesomebastard
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: Neuron]
    #9575544 - 01/09/09 04:22 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Neuron said:
at least that makes perfectly valid sense.

but how can there be zero free will?




What makes you, you?
Could we agree that you are the result of the way in which your mind has adapted to your environment overtime?
Did you choose your genes?
How about your hometown, country or era?
Can we agree that what you think right now is nothing but the result of the above statements?
Do you really choose anything?

Logic must have a base.
If the logic behind the abstract idea of free will rests upon your charachter,
and your character is the result of many things which you did not choose, free will as we have known it longer exists.

This is the argument that many take on the matter in a nutshell.

There is also another stance that argues that since you have limited choices in all situations you do not truly have free will, but this argument IMO is just semantics.
I prefer the former argument.


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."

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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: awesomebastard]
    #9575562 - 01/09/09 04:34 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

awesomebastard said:
Quote:

Neuron said:
at least that makes perfectly valid sense.

but how can there be zero free will?




What makes you, you?
Could we agree that you are the result of the way in which your mind has adapted to your environment overtime?




we also have the ability to shape our future to some extent.  doesn't that give us some freedom of will? (assuming we've broken somewhat out of the binds of mechanistic mentality)

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Invisibleawesomebastard
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: deranger]
    #9575570 - 01/09/09 04:45 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I suppose it depends on how you view it.

Logically since the postulate is completely out of your control as well as so many other things I would argue against free will in even that circumstance.

To each his own though,
I cannot say for sure because in the end all of our "knowledge" is based on assumption in some way or another.
Not to mention that this argument is based mainly on semantics.
:bongload:


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."

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OfflinedOseDidontknow
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: Neuron]
    #9575585 - 01/09/09 05:02 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Neuron said:
I simply do not understand this man.

How can ego not exist? Perhaps I am mistaking ego with 'self', but really- we are the individuals doing the perceiving. He also told me that he believed EVERYTHING was pre-determined and that there is no free will.

What are your guys' beliefs on free will?

Thank you.




I believe what your proffesor was saying in regards to there being no free will was that we are just 'biomechanical creatures' responding to our enviroments with calculable responses and our conciousnous a biproduct of our brains systematic reaction.

I am not sayin it right I know, but most scientists are who are up to date with this type of stuff are starting to lean towards the no free will side of the argument. 

Although we may believe we have free will, it just may be an illusion.
Our decisions to do something may be made after the decision has already been made..

Like the concious decision was just a biproduct of the already made decision. You know what Im trying to say?

Like our subconcious minds or something have already made the decision  and our "ego" makes us think we decided to make that choice, when in reality we are only reacting.

Do you think a bee has free will?
Or do you think he is a slave to his purpose?
Is he just an organic robot carrying out his instinctive programming?
Or is he an individual with his own thoughts and wishes?



Even though it may apear our thoughts our random.

I believe that everything that was led me to what I am now.
I have been "programmed" my entire life. The programmer my world. My mind a blandisk for the program to be stored in. I cannot escape what I am. I can only react to things the way I have been conditioned to do so.
The world controls me. I am only a machine reacting to the world the way I have been taught best. I have no free will rather the world wills me.

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OfflinedOseDidontknow
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Re: Does ego really exist, or is it just an illusion we have? [Re: dOseDidontknow]
    #9575619 - 01/09/09 05:23 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Say I am walking towards a wall.
From experience I know I cant walk through the wall.
So I think " I can go left or right"

As those thoughts go through my head I assume they are realtime and conjured by myself.
When in reality those concious thoughts may just be my EGO {or somethin} feeding me  what my "overmind" is calculating and presenting it as my own thoughts, making me assume my concious mind has ultimate control..


The Ego is most definately real, but it may only be an illusion.
Its is not a tangible object, but rather an old idea.
A technical term used in psychiatry, the name for conciousness...

What I think your proffesor meant by the no Ego thing was that he didnt think that his ego was real. Meaning he didnt think that his ego was what it is sipposed to be. According to him and his way of thinking his "ego" doesnt fit the definition of what an ego is, as he has no free will. To him, he probably would probably best describe his ego as a 'mirror'.

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