Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 17 hours, 45 minutes
What's consciousness?
    #9468170 - 12/20/08 05:00 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Conscioussness. What is it?

Isn't it just what happens? You know, awareness?

Why are there supposed to be higher levels of awareness? Does the word 'level' actually mean anything in this case?

So is it just different awareness? Like a filter? Like ok, I am just gonna see lines, edges, no fuzzy things, just the lines like artists do sometimes when drawing so ok, I look up and wallah, all the lines in the room pop out.

Or is it to stop the filters, like maybe I already have too many filters, so if i stopped the filters I would have a broader consciousness

Then to process things.

I mean it gets complicated right? Cause if we're talking about consciousness and it's just awareness, then we can be aware of all sorts of things.

I guess there is information flooding in from within and without and we can open and close the flood gates. But maybe some information isn't flooding in, maybe it needs to be pulled in intentionally?

Ok sorry for all this they should have laid it all out in kindergarden.

Is consciousnees passive? Active? What the heck would an active consciousness be like? I mean I guess attention is an active process, but beyond that things come in passively, right? I mean I can't pull photons into my eyes actively, beyond the basic principles of physics.

I guess higher order actives levels come next but am I missing anything with this basic awareness stuff?

Sorry for this weird way of saying things but it seems like if I just talk normally I am going to constrain the conversation to my preconceptions.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedead4spread20
Stranger
Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 71
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: Freedom]
    #9468499 - 12/20/08 05:54 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Going in the direction of quasi everything is everything field... these filters are put in place to correctly line up the data around us, wavelengths and frequencies in respect to light and how we "interpret" this information. I was actually thinking today what the world would look like if you took away..color... To be able to see, and perhaps sense the way, form, pattern that the physical world inhabits(seeing the atoms for as far as it knows) Visualizing string theory  a matter of me  mind tripping and hallucinating in my mental image such a pattern, how would this look.

What is this image? This is consciousness. Are my neurons dancing around in my brain AHHH  to create the images as I literally create the hills of Tuscany(well what I saw in that movie) .... is this some cosmic force(existence of God), or is it a physical commotion within "my head"(atheists assholes blah blah nothing is real wahhh)  ..Lets be REAL and RATIONAL duhh atheists aren't supposed to believe in tele  anything except they WISH Richard Dawkins would be on TV all the time

..


I assume that psychedelics tune in on the shit we supposedly don't need in life as deemed by the "improbabilities of everyting actually ever happening factor", for instance there is a pink unicorn looking over my soldier.

But when I think about the budding theory's, talking about everything is everything... hallucinogens are IMO taking these filters away, allowing distant far out info we "don't need" This info is in the form of

a. colors
b. hallucinations
c. hard to describe but that tricky force in your head that makes you act strange when your high..you guys know what I'm talking about the paranoid factor of weed some people get


A happens the most(seems logical as in the mainframe of everything, "color" as we know it probably takes a good portion of the "probability field"

C happen to occur fairly common

while B is depending on the drug

....our brain has in influence on how these filters open up?? this gives reason to why in psychosis mode we actually tend to believe things that normally would be fairly ridiculous(((((If by believing you actually create a function out of these probability fields...hmmm I'll leave that up to the real nuts to figure out muhaha))))))

..


I'm stoned, rambled for a hour, and I am certain certain with my right hand on a Richard Dick Dawkins book this post is very very very very very incoherent.. but I have had been going Going on a whim but maybe certain filters in our brain, which so happen to be physical objects affected by physical objects i.e. drugs However

what these filters are filtering ??what?? something physical? Light? government controlled gamma rays which monitor and absolutely may or may not control my actions and feelings...

What is physical? Where is the drawn line between physical and metaphysical or mystic... surely the brain is physical consisting of elements but what of the images in my head, my ability to sense outward and think about things not within MY REALM <my definition of consciousness to answer the OP....specifically the unknown component why how what

IMO consciousness and what it EMBODIES proves that..well it's certainly not proof of God's existence, but somewhere, somewhere, I know, wholeheartedly, that Atheists do not exist. what up motherfuckers i don't believe in youuuuu

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 17 hours, 45 minutes
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: dead4spread20]
    #9468708 - 12/20/08 06:41 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

well right maybe I get you cause we aren't robots, we have awareness of things even of neurologically or teleologically we don't even need that awareness.

But so I mean does my original post have anything to do with what people mean by consciousness? It seems the budhists have the most advanced conceptions on it but I don't know anything about that.

I guess there are many layers of processing that happen after the first direct experience, and the processing can seem to happen really fast

umm but dinners ready so I'm gonna eat

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCameron
Too Many Words
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 4,437
Loc: Canada
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: Freedom]
    #9469304 - 12/20/08 08:45 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Isn't it just what happens? You know, awareness?




I don't think consciousness can be reduced to what happens. How creatures receive and react to those events seems more fitting.

Quote:

Why are there supposed to be higher levels of awareness? Does the word 'level' actually mean anything in this case?




When I stand bare-footed in the snow, I'm aware of the cold. That basic sensory input is common with most or all conscious creatures.

When I reflect on the steps I took to end up bare-footed in the snow, I'm aware of the past: I ignored my soggy shoes lying on the heater, I stepped through the open doorway, and I let it close behind me, locking shut as it did. This kind of higher brain function is not as common amongst animals.

As I remember the thoughts which carried me outside, I'm aware of the reasoning and the intentions that led me there. This may be a solely human "level" of awareness.

When I devise a plan to get back inside, I'm becoming aware of the future. I'm ensuring that my next course of action will be a pre-meditated path. This is definitely not limited to humans, but the way in which we plan -- through language, abstract reasoning, and the like -- probably is.

I think those "levels" of awareness are fairly distinct from one another. I'm sure there are more, as well.

Quote:

Sorry for this weird way of saying things but it seems like if I just talk normally I am going to constrain the conversation to my preconceptions.




I think I read you loud and clear. Your post didn't seem weird to me. :tongue:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: Freedom]
    #9471201 - 12/21/08 04:21 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Actually, you're pretty close to the Buddhist view.

Buddhists define consciousness as sense organ + perception of an object. However, the object is only there when we pay attention to it. And attention is synonymous with awareness. There are 6 sense organs, 5 senses + mind.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,062
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: Freedom]
    #9471440 - 12/21/08 07:05 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

yes there are senses, and memory is also a sense (in a sense), as well as timing (addressable and effected in the cerebellum).
all the senses contribute to the formation of new memories,
and all of it happens on the stage of consciousness.

this staging of conscious events happens in the huge wrinkled membranes of the cerebral cortex.

Most people understand this much but it gets very murky when you go past this point in examining consciousness:
1) shall we look at the mind moment, i.e. all the parts of an instant in consciousness (like "citta" in Buddhist Abhidhamma)
2) shall we look at the stream of consciousness, i.e. the sequence of mind moments and the shifts from sensory to associative, the fragments, the seeking, the responding, the echoes...
3) shall we look at "state of mind" which ranges in layered-ness from simple waking state through progressive layering of emotions (psychedelics, meditative jhanas etc.) to the very majically layered dreamstates (and epiphanies, satories etc.)

whatever your theory of consciousness is, it needs to address these things.

I think if you use the term "filter", you introduce an idea that relates to consciousness poorly except for the filtering in the reticular formation of the medulla oblongata, which helps when going to sleep (to filter out body sensation) or when in shock.
Mostly what seems "filtered" is the fragments of sensation and memory (the majority of mind is in the activation of unrecognizeable fragments) which are normally fleeting, but which persist longer when "stoned".

the persistence of fragments of images and ideation, when using psychedelics, is the first clue to longer fading (and subsequent layering) of sensory signals (including memory signals) in the cortex.
it is not, as many popular psychologists, and unsubstantiated research has suggested, due to a change in "filtering"

However, you could say that the stream of consciousness becomes diverted by our associations (perceptions/memories/responses), and you could argue that the change in path of awareness is a kind of filtering, but i would have a very hard time equating (associative) habituation to the idea of filters, especially when it is obvious that the fading of signals is an issue, and that it is much more logical to assume that the senses send fragmentary data, and memory reacts in fragments as a matter of course.

we normally don't notice the partials, because they don't normally last longer than 1/15th of a second, but when they do stick around longer (fade more slowly), they certainly enrich vision, sound, touch, life in unusual ways...


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9472598 - 12/21/08 12:43 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Higher consciousness like the human being possesses is relative to our capacity/need for communication. The language  capacity we have developed as a species has given to us a ego that deals only with this language to order thoughts. But of course just like any animal we have language-less instincts and subconscious that influences, its just we can only cognize in our language of communication.


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: andrewss]
    #9472840 - 12/21/08 01:36 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

What's consciousness?

That nobody knows.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: Bernackums]
    #9473260 - 12/21/08 03:00 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bernackums said:
What's consciousness?

That nobody knows.




Everyone knows what consciousness is, but they can't communicate the full extent of it through mere words.  Consciousness is an experience; nothing more, nothing less.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 17 hours, 45 minutes
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: andrewss]
    #9473296 - 12/21/08 03:09 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


I don't think consciousness can be reduced to what happens. How creatures receive and react to those events seems more fitting.




I can see here definitions are going to have to be precise, and I already don't like the word consciousness, but perhaps its good for a title cause the question I'm asking is vague to begin with!

Quote:

Actually, you're pretty close to the Buddhist view.




yeah, what little I've read about buddhism really makes sense to me, and it's probably influenced my thought more than I realize.

Quote:


Buddhists define consciousness as sense organ + perception of an object



Quote:

yes there are senses, and memory is also a sense (in a sense), as well as timing (addressable and effected in the cerebellum).
all the senses contribute to the formation of new memories,
and all of it happens on the stage of consciousness.

this staging of conscious events happens in the huge wrinkled membranes of the cerebral cortex.




ok this is nice and clear. I would use this sentence: there is information (senses, memory, maybe even emotion but emotion probably complicates things too much for now), and the awareness of information.

Yes very basic. Simple. I like that, it's a good foundation, seems pretty stable.

Already there are some interesting things to note. There are discrete pieces of information. Not just the five senses, but like the feeling of heat on my finger tip, or a pitch in my ear, and sensing the senses also seems like a separate thing.

Quote:

1) shall we look at the mind moment, i.e. all the parts of an instant in consciousness (like "citta" in Buddhist Abhidhamma)




that's an interesting way to split things up, to split the content of moments up from the movement of moments.

Quote:

3) shall we look at "state of mind" which ranges in layered-ness from simple waking state through progressive layering of emotions (psychedelics, meditative jhanas etc.) to the very majically layered dreamstates (and epiphanies, satories etc.)




I'm not sure I know what you mean by layered-ness here - is the layers that start with direct sensation, then perception and interpretation? emtions don't seem like a layer to me, they seem more like they change the perception, like they change the layering process (if perception and iterpretation are what you mean by layers).

Quote:

I think if you use the term "filter", you introduce an idea that relates to consciousness poorly except for the filtering in the reticular formation of the medulla oblongata, which helps when going to sleep (to filter out body sensation) or when in shock.
Mostly what seems "filtered" is the fragments of sensation and memory (the majority of mind is in the activation of unrecognizeable fragments) which are normally fleeting, but which persist longer when "stoned".




So you are saying you don't like the term filter because it implies that some information is being blocked? Like in the example if I look at the world and see the edges or the negative space or something, the difference is not that anything is being blocked out, but more that the stream of consciousness (awareness) is being diverted? This kind of makes sense, especially if binocular rivalry is used as an example. This is where an image can look like two different things, like say a dog and a cat. If you look at it one way, you see a cat, another you see a dog. So you would say the stream of conciousness is being diverted one way or another, not that the cat or dog is being blocked in some way.

But what do you mean when you say that most of mind is the activation of unrecognizable fragments? Are you saying that things seem like they are filtered out because that's what it seems like when we don't recognize something? So it's more like things that resemble memories or catagories or concepts, i.e, the things we recognize, are highlighted?

Quote:

Higher consciousness like the human being possesses is relative to our capacity/need for communication. The language  capacity we have developed as a species has given to us a ego that deals only with this language to order thoughts. But of course just like any animal we have language-less instincts and subconscious that influences, its just we can only cognize in our language of communication.




Hey that's what we're doing now, it's like we're wickedly complex neurons in a group consciousness, but that's to complicated for me right now, I'm gonna start by seeing what google has to say about "citta Abhidhamma"!

Thanks for all the replies, this is fun

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 17 hours, 45 minutes
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: Freedom]
    #9473576 - 12/21/08 04:06 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Hey in case anyone's interested I came across the ABHIDHAMMATTHA - SANGAHA of Anuruddhācariya -

I'm surprised by how much is in there. If it's true then it's like a bunch of big answers just waiting for someone to read them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: Freedom]
    #9473605 - 12/21/08 04:15 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

If you wanna get another opinion read Nietzsche's The Gay Science, particularly the 5th section has some sections about this sort of thing. :thumbup:

It is hard to really discuss what consciousness is when its hard to even give it a focused definition. It seems to me that our higher human consciousness comes from our ability to convey thoughts (which I think probably came from pure emotions logically) between each other and thus begins a slow process of a human practicing whether aware or not of communication within his own mind with himself. I think the play of language consciousness stems from some sort of empathetic connection we forged with each other in a basic group experience which began to dominate our species social behavior. What a dice throw man was/is :crazy2:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: deCypher]
    #9473778 - 12/21/08 04:51 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Bernackums said:
What's consciousness?

That nobody knows.




Everyone knows what consciousness is, but they can't communicate the full extent of it through mere words.  Consciousness is an experience; nothing more, nothing less.




My mistake, consciousness is something everyone knows but cannot explain.:thumbup:


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,062
Re: What's consciousness? trying to do this in as few words as possible [Re: Freedom]
    #9474302 - 12/21/08 06:38 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I guess I did not spend enough text on the mind moment idea
(citta) which is all of everything that is together in any particular moment of time in the mind.

this fades away, and the next mind moment begins, with just the tiniest overlap, or linkage.

then this fades and the next begins...

arbitrarily a mind moment of this type lasts 1/15th of a second.
the stream of consciousness is all of that, and you can revisit the moments in memory, because what happened together is linked together as a scene in memory, and because of the linkages between the scenes enabled by the tiny overlaps, as one mind moment fades and the next begins.

memory achieves these things, storing the moments, and storing the connection between moments and it seems to do it by instantly finding common essences in each active moment and re-kindling activity in stored patterns with the same essentials.

the more commonality and the more repetition the stronger the association.

it performs recall by using association - matching essences (the abstraction of each signal pattern is an interference pattern in the cortex, like a hologram).

anyway, that is a great story about how memory works and how it is integrally related with the consciousness stream.


So to take it a step further, those natural overlappings of successive moments facilitate the sense of there actually being a continuous stream of consciousness, and it is achieved by the fading of one moment overtop of the arising of the next. Over the extended period of 3 seconds, about 45 of these transitions occur, and it seems to be enough to form an average gesture of personality.

Anyway if a moment fades more slowly, it can overlap the next moment more significantly, and for consciousness this will establish two complete sets of the signals of experiencing (two gestalts). and if it fades even more slowly you can have 3 or even more simultaneous totalities of experience.

I call this overlapping of experience frame stacking, or layered experiencing and I think it correlates well with states of mind:
it happens when we have psychedelic, or dream, or have emotional or other intensification, like meditation.


if you do google Citta or abhidhamma you will find a term Feeling used.
it is used very specifically and in a very limited way such that there are only 3 feelings: Pain, Pleasure, and indifferent.

all of these feelings relate to body sense, and they become encorporated into memory. when we recall a specific memory the attribute of Feeling in the recalled experience can become evoked. these surges of Feelings are what we know of as emotions. Recollections with body feelings. sometimes re-experiencing aggregates of memory with the same body feelings can be overwhelming.

and that is how emotion fits into this very stripped down model of consciousness and memory.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: Freedom]
    #9475138 - 12/21/08 09:10 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Consciousness is the 'I' which sees, but which is never seen.
Consciousness may well be 1/2 the substratum of phenomenal existence, the other 1/2 being space-time. Then, Reality would be "psychoid" (Jung and Pauli). Consciousness Itself is both transcendent and immanent - unmanifest and manifest - eternal and temporal.
But then again, I am a philosophical Idealist and I recognize the primacy of consciousness over matter. It is God.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleArden
לנשום

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 7,666
Loc: Α & Ω Flag
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #9475213 - 12/21/08 09:22 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Consciousness is the 'I' which sees, but which is never seen.




- Bhagavad Gita

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #9476429 - 12/22/08 02:39 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Consciousness is the 'I' which sees, but which is never seen.
Consciousness may well be 1/2 the substratum of phenomenal existence, the other 1/2 being space-time. Then, Reality would be "psychoid" (Jung and Pauli). Consciousness Itself is both transcendent and immanent - unmanifest and manifest - eternal and temporal.
But then again, I am a philosophical Idealist and I recognize the primacy of consciousness over matter. It is God.




Yeah, but don't you see the legitimacy in debating just how intellectually sound our human perspective is? Could it be that a lot of our ideas are pretty weak, perhaps we have no right to claim some things about our knowledge. Surely many of us feel the need to extend our reasonable ideas of the psyche, god, and cosmos but surely we must realize that those projections of the temporal ideas we only possesses... I guess I am just pretty skeptical about claiming true knowledge of metaphysics, at least telological.


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,062
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: andrewss]
    #9476607 - 12/22/08 04:25 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

shhh. buddhism superceeded hinduism five hundred years ago.
watching consciousness is the main idea
don't give up.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleChronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: Freedom]
    #9477334 - 12/22/08 09:49 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

consciousness is nothing, as in it's not a 'thing'


the nature of awareness is that it is not an object


find out if you are an object

if you find you are an object, then whats aware of that?

is that an object?



:peace:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,062
Re: What's consciousness? [Re: Chronic7]
    #9477860 - 12/22/08 11:52 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

to whom do you address these propositions and questions?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Consciousness Fragmentation Effect ShroomismM 1,158 16 02/05/04 08:08 PM
by Strumpling
* The 3 Unified Fields of Conscious Awareness Theory
( 1 2 all )
gettinjiggywithit 2,924 23 03/29/05 10:51 AM
by gettinjiggywithit
* A course in consciousness *DELETED*
( 1 2 all )
dorkus 3,193 21 06/07/05 12:08 PM
by MarkostheGnostic
* (Human) Consciousness
( 1 2 3 4 all )
trendalM 6,241 64 01/03/04 05:49 PM
by Deiymiyan
* A Different Understanding of Consciousness
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Ped 5,339 73 04/30/07 09:42 AM
by Icelander
* Collective... Conscious v Unconscious PrimaMateria 888 5 08/18/05 04:21 PM
by leery11
* higher consciousness... how do you handle it?
( 1 2 3 all )
moog 3,985 57 08/29/05 10:47 AM
by yousuck
* So you think reality is changing and our consciousness is..
( 1 2 3 all )
Mixomatosis 4,603 46 09/24/04 01:13 PM
by mecreateme

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
4,090 topic views. 1 members, 6 guests and 25 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.029 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 16 queries.