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Offlinemr_kite
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Who here follows Zen
    #9098940 - 10/19/08 05:44 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Over the last few years I have undergone a huge personal change, partly due to biting the bullet and finally growing up, but hugely catalysed by finding in the teachings of Zen an awakened view of the universe which resonates almost exactly with my own suspicions about reality.

Firstly, IMO Zen in essence has almost nothing to do with "Buddhism". If you have only read a little, all of your pre-conceptions of Zen are probably wrong .Of course it grew out of Buddhism, but by its nature Zen is anti-religious, anti-intellectual in that it is essentially an attempt to examine the inner workings of our being as immediately and practically as possible (I paraphrase Suzuki). With Zen you believe nothing, you think nothing; “FROM THE FIRST NOT A THING IS” is at the root of Zen.

Here is fantastic paragraph from Huang Po around 1200 years ago which (despite some jargon) serves as a concise overview of Zen; Huang Po’s “On the Transmission of Mind” is one of the finest of Zen teachings and I seriously recommend it to anyone interested in life.

“If an ordinary man, when he is about to die, could only see the five elements of consciousness as void; the four physical elements as not constituting an “I”; the real Mind as formless and neither coming nor going; his nature as something neither commencing at his birth not perishing at his death, but as whole and motionless in its very depths; his Mind and environment objects as one - if he could really accomplish this, he would receive Enlightenment in a flash.…. If he should behold the glorious sight of all the Buddhists coming to welcome him, surrounded be every kind of gorgeous manifestation, he would feel no desire to approach them. If he should behold all sorts of horrific forms surrounding him, he would experience no terror. He would just be himself, oblivious of conceptual thought and one with the Absolute. He would have attained the state of unconditioned being. This then is the fundamental principle.”


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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Who here follows Zen [Re: mr_kite]
    #9098968 - 10/19/08 06:20 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

it's a good practice


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Who here follows Zen [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9099615 - 10/19/08 11:28 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

While I think there is some value there generally I think for most it's just another place to hide from life, to try to make the messy experience of feeling and being a human animal all neat and tidy.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
. [Re: Icelander]
    #9099679 - 10/19/08 11:49 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Who here follows Zen [Re: dr_gonz]
    #9099692 - 10/19/08 11:52 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Gee, your statement of belief says nothing. Please explain in detail why it makes no sense and we can debate this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
. [Re: Icelander]
    #9099699 - 10/19/08 11:54 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Who here follows Zen [Re: dr_gonz]
    #9099735 - 10/19/08 12:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Many people want to still their mind because of the chaos and fear of thought and feeling. Instead of reprogramming their though process (which is messy scary and difficult) they would rather believe they can just shut it off and then feel good and alive. I have known so many folk who believe this is a cure and I also wanted it at one time.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Who here follows Zen [Re: Icelander]
    #9099823 - 10/19/08 12:29 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
While I think there is some value there generally I think for most it's just another place to hide from life, to try to make the messy experience of feeling and being a human animal all neat and tidy.




Although I concur that one cannot fully neglect emotions and wisps of animal desire, what benefit does following the "natural" path give you?

Death is perfectly natural.  Does that mean that we should accept it blindly like so many non-thinking beasts?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Who here follows Zen [Re: deCypher]
    #9099854 - 10/19/08 12:37 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
While I think there is some value there generally I think for most it's just another place to hide from life, to try to make the messy experience of feeling and being a human animal all neat and tidy.




Although I concur that one cannot fully neglect emotions and wisps of animal desire, what benefit does following the "natural" path give you?

Death is perfectly natural.  Does that mean that we should accept it blindly like so many non-thinking beasts?




The benefit of living a natural life is that it is eminently suited to us. It can be a very interesting and joyful experience.

First you are assuming that "beasts:tongue:" are non thinking; then assuming that they even are aware of their ultimate fate. It seems only humans dwell on the future to the extent that it causes us anxiety.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: Who here follows Zen [Re: Icelander]
    #9099868 - 10/19/08 12:39 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I'd rather rage against the dying of the light than willingly extinguish my spark of life.  :shrug:

Perhaps this leads to death anxiety--all I know is that they'll be dragging me to my grave kicking and screaming.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Who here follows Zen [Re: Icelander]
    #9099873 - 10/19/08 12:40 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
While I think there is some value there generally I think for most it's just another place to hide from life, to try to make the messy experience of feeling and being a human animal all neat and tidy.




In my experience it is quite the opposite, its engaging fully with life in the present instead of wandering around inside your own mind. The idea of tidying up the experience implies that something is lost; I think nothing is lost and nothing is gained! You just see things as they really are, and such concepts lose their relevance.


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Registered: 05/19/08
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Re: Who here follows Zen [Re: Icelander]
    #9099882 - 10/19/08 12:41 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It seems only humans dwell on the future to the extent that it causes us anxiety.




And this anxiety can manifest to problems that would have not occurred if we stayed in the present.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Who here follows Zen [Re: deCypher]
    #9099891 - 10/19/08 12:42 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
I'd rather rage against the dying of the light than willingly extinguish my spark of life.  :shrug:

Perhaps this leads to death anxiety--all I know is that they'll be dragging me to my grave kicking and screaming.




I'm sorry for you then. But it's a common feeling and I experience death anxiety myself.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Who here follows Zen [Re: mr_kite]
    #9099905 - 10/19/08 12:45 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mr_kite said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
While I think there is some value there generally I think for most it's just another place to hide from life, to try to make the messy experience of feeling and being a human animal all neat and tidy.




In my experience it is quite the opposite, its engaging fully with life in the present instead of wandering around inside your own mind. The idea of tidying up the experience implies that something is lost; I think nothing is lost and nothing is gained! You just see things as they really are, and such concepts lose their relevance.




That's why I didn't say all people. I said many. That's why I said it has value as a tool. It is not the only one or even a better one.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinemr_kite
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Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
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Re: Who here follows Zen [Re: deCypher]
    #9099918 - 10/19/08 12:47 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
I'd rather rage against the dying of the light than willingly extinguish my spark of life.  :shrug:




This worldview implies that you are somehow seperate from the rest of reality. Your spark of life is merely life and the universe itself! If you realise that you are part of the universe then nothing is lost with death, and nothing is gained by remaining alive.

This is not nihilistic, it is merely looking at things from beyond the concept of self and ego. This is similar to the truth behind the Buddha's saying of "Truly I gained nothing from enlightenment".


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Who here follows Zen [Re: mr_kite]
    #9099922 - 10/19/08 12:49 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mr_kite said:If you realise that you are part of the universe then nothing is lost with death, and nothing is gained by remaining alive.




Agreed.  But if you truly believe this, why not kill yourself right now to merge back into the cosmic One?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Who here follows Zen [Re: deCypher]
    #9099932 - 10/19/08 12:51 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Because it is fun to be alive or an interesting experience. Or one is afraid of death. (any new experience can provoke anxiety)

What other reasons could one have?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Who here follows Zen [Re: Icelander]
    #9099936 - 10/19/08 12:51 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

mr_kite said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
While I think there is some value there generally I think for most it's just another place to hide from life, to try to make the messy experience of feeling and being a human animal all neat and tidy.




In my experience it is quite the opposite, its engaging fully with life in the present instead of wandering around inside your own mind. The idea of tidying up the experience implies that something is lost; I think nothing is lost and nothing is gained! You just see things as they really are, and such concepts lose their relevance.




That's why I didn't say all people. I said many. That's why I said it has value as a tool. It is not the only one or even a better one.




What other tools are equivalent in your view? I think reprogramming thought processes is just the same realisation in different words.


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Who here follows Zen [Re: mr_kite]
    #9099946 - 10/19/08 12:53 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

RET, Sex, psychedelics, surrender to the total messy experience of the emotions, to name a few.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Who here follows Zen [Re: deCypher]
    #9099947 - 10/19/08 12:53 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Quote:

mr_kite said:If you realise that you are part of the universe then nothing is lost with death, and nothing is gained by remaining alive.




Agreed.  But if you truly believe this, why not kill yourself right now to merge back into the cosmic One?




So you are not currently part of the "cosmic One"? How would killing yourself change things?


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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