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Offlinesumo
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Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 50
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
jars wont colonize anymore
    #9075526 - 10/14/08 11:07 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Hello,

This is my 1st post, been reading a lot.
This is my 2nd attempt to post this same message. The first post has not shown up.

I am new to all of this. I am having a terrible time getting my 1/2 pint jars to colonize.
I had Fantastic results the first 2 or 3 times. However now I am only getting 1 jar out of of 60 to colonize.
The one that colonizes does so very slowly and does not finish enough to use.

The 2nd and 3rd times , I got 5 flushes. The end product was very good, no complaints from any one.
The first time my substrate mixture was 2-2/3 cups of "organically produced" brown rice flour and 8 cups of

vermiculite. Mix these two dry ingredients together with a large spoon until they are well combined, then add

2-2/3 cups of water. This is from a word document, I got no idea who put it together. I had great results
in jar colonization. The rest of the tek said to crumble the cakes up and use a casing layer. It worked just a little.
From 12 cakes  I got about 3 mushrooms and lots of aborts. The crumbling made the mycleum bruise. I thought it

was contamination and scaped it away, causing more damage and resulting in the low yeild.
No biggie , it was the first try. Keep in mind the jars DID colonize!!!!

2nd try was after watchin mushroom video. It says 3 cup water, 3cup BRF, 9 cups verm.(for 12 cakes).
This is like  1part water,1 part BRF, 3part verm. (Is that the correct ratio??Is my math correct??).
I always use Distilled water for everything, even in the pot that I steam the jars in.
Again the jars colonized fine!!!  I folowed the rest of the directions in the video on the PF tek method.
Great results all the way around. Good yield and no complaints at all.

I saw another video by the same folks that used 1cup water ,1cup BRF,2 cups verm. This seems to me to  be a ratio

of 1part water,1 part BRF, 2part verm.This is a very different ratio from the other video. I expect differnt opinions

from different folks, but I was a little confused why there would be a difference from the same people.

The PF tek on this site says -
Maximum fruiting formula:
1/4 cup of brown rice powder
1/2 cup of vermiculite
60 ccs water

Using the google calculator for volume. 60cc, (cubic centimeters) comes to 0.253 cups US. Again... Is my math right

on that????  This seems to me to still be a ratio of 1part water,1 part BRF, 2part verm.

OMG, which IS the correct mixture.

I  always wash my jars very well, I cant even get a contaminate to grow in the jars now.
I have tried all these different mixtures and can not get anything to grow anymore, save a single jar per batch of

60 jars.

In the first few sucsessful tries , if I got a contaminate, I empty the jar outside, fill it 1/2 full of bleach ,add water to

top, let set a day or two then  thougholy wash them. I always use new lids , but I re-use the jars and rings.
I am using 4 holes instead of 2 holes in the lid now. That is the only thing I been doing different that I know of.
I added the two extra holes after reading that cakes that stall out needed more gas exchange.

I use Hodgeson Mill Rye Flour, Its the only  kind I can find locally here. 2lb box. StaGreen fine verm.distilled

water. I used a spore syringe originally, and spore prints made into syringes after that. Success on both ways, so
I dont think the problem is in my making of the syringe.

I thought mabey I was over sterilizing and mabey killing the spores, but that does not seem to be the case.

I have been trying LC made with tissue sample but no luck with it colonizing, I make 2 to 5 sets of 12 jars with the

same substrate mix. I try spore syringe and the LC . no colonization with either. I tried the syringe tek that talks

about putting the karo mixiture  into a syring and squirting it into a colonized jar,( I have saved a few jars in the

fridge because of the steady increase in failures!!). You then shake the colonized jar and re draw up the liquid into

the syringe . I call this a sludge sample, heh he.

No mater which method I use in substrate mixture, no mater what method I use to inoculate, spor syringe, LC

tissue culture, or sludge. I get no growth in the jars. I have stoped trying any LC teks for the time being and have

concentrated on the spore syringes until I get cakes that will colonize.

I used room temp, 60 to 70 degree F. when I started. It has gotten coldeer now tho , I read 86 was the best temp

and added a heater to keep the temp up. I  then read that 86 was a myth, (lots of contradictory info on this site).
So I went back to 60-70.  Still no growth.

I honestly dont know what is going on, I had such good results  whenI started . Now 180 jars  have not

colonized!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ( Thats 60 jars > fail > wash ,remake  substrate mix ,inoculate> FAIL ,,, 3 times !!)

Please if  anyone can think why my jars wont colonize anymore , please,please let me know!!!!

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OfflineMHbound
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Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 6,512
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Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: sumo]
    #9075659 - 10/14/08 11:38 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Use the PF-Tek mixture it never failed me.

How long have your jars been colonizing?


--------------------

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OfflineNuzzle
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Registered: 09/29/08
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Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: MHbound]
    #9075716 - 10/14/08 11:52 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

watch your temperature, and make sure to wipe the inside lip of the jars clean. Also, make sure you put a top layer of dry verm above your substrate to act as a filter. I highly recommend using micropore tape over your holes in the jar...

I followed the pf tek and I have had 0 problems... a slight stall in growth due to the weather changes here, but I quickly resolved that. now I am back on track.

I just suggest looking around this site at various posts, teks, and videos.... there is way more then enough info here. Chances are if your having a problem, someone else has had the same problem. :smile:
I did weeks of reading around here and found just about every question I had answered.

** just a note... I keep my jars in a closet and I keep the temperature between 80-83F I had a stall when the temp went to 75-78


--------------------
:hi:**If you have any spare spore prints lying around, and your feeling 'giving' drop me a PM** :dancer:

Edited by Nuzzle (10/14/08 11:54 AM)

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Offlinenenl
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Registered: 07/16/08
Posts: 683
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: MHbound]
    #9075719 - 10/14/08 11:53 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


I used room temp, 60 to 70 degree F. when I started. It has gotten coldeer now tho , I read 86 was the best temp

and added a heater to keep the temp up. I  then read that 86 was a myth, (lots of contradictory info on this site).
So I went back to 60-70.  Still no growth.





60-70 is definitely low - there's a lot of debate, but I've never read about anything below 75 being ideal. That could be the only issue...

At that temp it oculd be a month before seeing anything at all.

I have ambient temp around 80 and colonization is usually pretty quick ime.


--------------------
hehe

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InvisibleQuantumReality
Mycopath 🗡
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Registered: 05/20/07
Posts: 3,203
Loc: BoobyTraps
Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: nenl]
    #9075830 - 10/14/08 12:21 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

yea 78-80 is the preferred temp for colonization

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Offlinesumo
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Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 50
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: QuantumReality]
    #9076061 - 10/14/08 01:15 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

MHBound: I have let them go as long as 1 month w/o any signs of growth.
Lately I only wait 2 weeks, if I see nothing , I dump em and start again. Shouldn't 2 weeks be enough to see at least a speck of growth???
My first attempts I saw growth at 2 days and never took longer than 4 days to show a start.

Nuzzle: I will watch the temp. I do wipe the jar at the top and I do add the verm layer at the top.

Nenl: The failures did seem to start after I was keeping the temp at 86, once or twice the temp got up to 92. I have since been maintaining a temp of 73 to 80. I did not explain myself to well about the 60-70 temp. That is something I read , but I have been using 73- 80 on the latest batch. I hope it does better this time.

Thanks to all who replied. That was really fast replies. I am gonna try again and keep the temp at 80. The jars ARE in the dark. I will adjust my ceramic heater to keep temp at 80. I do watch it like a hawk!! When I hear it turn on I check the temp, and when it cuts off I check the temp. The dark closet is in the same room as the TV so I can keep check on it pretty close. Thanks again all, I will let you know how it goes this time.

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Invisiblenoobieshroomie
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Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 12,769
Loc: Not Too Sure Flag
Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: sumo]
    #9076081 - 10/14/08 01:19 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

good luck man keep us posted:thumbup:

  -noobie-


--------------------
AMU

Best Thread Ever
CapZilla said:
not sure what GE and FAE are but i should probably get some.

Citric said:
Your signature is wrong on colonization temps!

GOOD JUDGMENT COMES FROM EXPERIENCE
EXPERIENCE COMES FROM BAD JUDGMENT

ROOM TEMP 70-75 IS BEST FOR COLONIZATION
Thank you mycochef

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Invisibleseven
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Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 1,478
Loc: north carolina
Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: sumo]
    #9076101 - 10/14/08 01:22 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

jars can colonize at room temp on a shelf open in your room just fine. them getting light isnt an issue and no need for an incubator if your room dosent drop below seventy.


--------------------
grind

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Invisiblenoobieshroomie
Back again
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Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 12,769
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Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: seven]
    #9076133 - 10/14/08 01:28 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

i use a shelf in my kitchen cabinets above my clean dishes temp stays about 75 or so
works well for me

  -noobie-


--------------------
AMU

Best Thread Ever
CapZilla said:
not sure what GE and FAE are but i should probably get some.

Citric said:
Your signature is wrong on colonization temps!

GOOD JUDGMENT COMES FROM EXPERIENCE
EXPERIENCE COMES FROM BAD JUDGMENT

ROOM TEMP 70-75 IS BEST FOR COLONIZATION
Thank you mycochef

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Invisiblelipa


Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,684
Trusted Cultivator
Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: sumo]
    #9076228 - 10/14/08 01:47 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I thought maybe I was over sterilizing and maybe killing the spores, but that does not seem to be the case




I need to ask a question first? Explain to me why you think you killed your spores by over sterilizing. Your not adding spores to something that is to be sterilized are you?

Another thing. Please start working with agar before attempting to use lc's. It is not wise to use spores to start lc's and expect good results. No matter how sterile you are.

The temperatures you mentioned have nothing to do with your failure. So don't worry about that right now. Just answer my question and I will help you figure out where you went wrong.

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Offlinenenl
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Registered: 07/16/08
Posts: 683
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: lipa]
    #9076253 - 10/14/08 01:51 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

lipa said:
Quote:

I thought maybe I was over sterilizing and maybe killing the spores, but that does not seem to be the case




I need to ask a question first? Explain to me why you think you killed your spores by over sterilizing. Your not adding spores to something that is to be sterilized are you?




lol - I missed that part... only read through chapter three of the original post... just ribbin ya a bit sumo (welcome to the shroomery!)

excellent point - sterilizing is intended to kill everything which would include any shroom spores.


--------------------
hehe

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Offlinesumo
Stranger

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 50
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: nenl]
    #9076265 - 10/14/08 01:56 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

lipa said:
Quote:

I thought maybe I was over sterilizing and maybe killing the spores, but that does not seem to be the case




I need to ask a question first? Explain to me why you think you killed your spores by over sterilizing. Your not adding spores to something that is to be sterilized are you?




By over sterilizing I meant: Spraying lysol in the glovebox and only waiting 15 min before using it. Also I scrape the spore prints into oa shot glass ( all done inside the glove box). I used alcohol 90% to sterilize the shot glass, waited 30 min before using it. abe there wsas too much lysol in the box and it killed the spores??? The alocohol residue in the shot glass may have killed the spores???
In any event I re did another set of jars and did not lysol the box, and after alcohol the shot glass , I re wiped it with distilled water and let it dry. So I dont "thin

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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: nenl]
    #9076275 - 10/14/08 01:58 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Dont use distilled water, keep that for making spore syringes. Tap water is fine. There are minerals and nuitrients in water that are benificial to mycelium

Your using rye flour which you will need a pressure cooker, since you have had success before with it, then i assume you use a pressure cooker to sterilise your substrate.

What do you mean could you have oversterilised and killed the spores??


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek

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Invisibleseven
.
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Registered: 06/09/08
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Loc: north carolina
Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: sumo]
    #9076282 - 10/14/08 01:59 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

i doubt thats the problem man.


--------------------
grind

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Offlinesumo
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Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 50
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: veda_sticks]
    #9076314 - 10/14/08 02:06 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

veda_sticks said:
Dont use distilled water, keep that for making spore syringes. Tap water is fine. There are minerals and nuitrients in water that are benificial to mycelium

Your using rye flour which you will need a pressure cooker, since you have had success before with it, then i assume you use a pressure cooker to sterilise your substrate.

What do you mean could you have oversterilised and killed the spores??




I can not use my tap water, it is so full of contaminates and disolved Iron, I have a $2000.00 water filter and I still can not drink or use the water for cooking. We go to the city and get water in gallon jugs from relatives for cooking. I only shower and wash dishes in our tap water. We definatly need to move, but in this area almost everyone in the county has terrible water.

No , i dont use a presure cooker, cant aford one yet, could have bought one for all I spent on flour ,verm, and jar lids the last 3 months probally.

check my other post for "over sterilize" explanation.

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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: sumo]
    #9076329 - 10/14/08 02:09 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Your right, dont use your tap water. But i would not use distilled water though. If you have to use bottled water normal bottled drinking water is fine.

If your using rye grain, you need a pressure cooker. Rye flour has a high endospore count and must be pressure cooked to sterilise


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek

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Invisiblelipa


Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,684
Trusted Cultivator
Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: sumo]
    #9076346 - 10/14/08 02:14 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

God I hate lysol!!

Try this next time.

Sterilize your substrates and add a shot glass wrapped in foil, a jar of water,  your syringe opened all the way  with foil around it, and whatever you are going to scrape the spores with in a piece of foil.

While the pressure cooker is cooking wipe the inside of your glove box down with alcohol and make sure the holes are covered. Keep the room clear of anything that is moving including you and let the air settle.

When you are done and the pressure cooker is cool  enough to open and the pressure has dropped go inside the room and gently open the cooker and place the contents into you box. allow the substrate to cool.

Set everything but the syringe the spores and your shot glass aside and cock the spore print open but not open to expose it. Just enough to make it easy to open with one hand. loosen up the foil on top of the glass and grab your scalpel.

Take the spore print and open the glass up slowly and scrape some spores into it. Close the glass back with the foil and grab your jar of water. plunge your syringe into the water slowly and draw up water till it is full.

Take the syringe and gently squirt the water into the glass of spores and redraw. Expel the fluid and redraw a few times to help break up the spores.

Now inoculate the jars as usual.

P.s> You can use tap water. The chlorine is gone after it is done cooking. If your worried boil it first. It won't affect your spores. I promise.

I know you probably know all this already. I just want you to know you are going way overboard with the lysol and there is no need to bomb anything with it. Just keep your movements steady and smooth.

Edited by lipa (10/14/08 02:19 PM)

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Invisiblelipa


Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,684
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Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: lipa]
    #9076359 - 10/14/08 02:16 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Lysol is a surface cleaner not an air cleaner.

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Offlinedealinout
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Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: lipa]
    #9076380 - 10/14/08 02:20 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

yeh man i tried the 1 cup water 1 cup brown rice flower 2 cups vermiculite and had great success. i did boil them on the stove for over an hour.. but i dont see how if you keep that mixture going and keep things sterile you could mess it up.

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Invisiblelipa


Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,684
Trusted Cultivator
Re: jars wont colonize anymore [Re: lipa]
    #9076395 - 10/14/08 02:24 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Don't be afraid to squeeze any excess moisture out of your medium with your hands after it is mixed if you think you got the water content wrong. Just make sure the top part of the jars are clean and free of substrate before adding you dry vermiculite. The cooker will kill anything that comes off of your hands when squeezing. Sterilize it for 1 hour @ 15 psi

Edited by lipa (10/14/08 02:54 PM)

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