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Offlinecamplo
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What If I could keep Rh up high enough with the lid off?
    #8853612 - 08/30/08 07:22 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I'm saying. Ive been playing around with my variation of a forget n fire bubbleh. And I have adjusted so that as long as there are no strong air curents in the room that the rh (at the surface of whatever the mist is falling atleast) is hitting about 97%. I tried to adjust the mist so that if was any lower that it would hold humidity.
Its so low that after about a 24 hour trail only a very small amount of condensation built up (foggers are known for their heavy over saturating mist). So Im like ok plastic is not going to absorb water, produce heat, or have the surface area of my substrate that would cause more evaporation so I might not over saturate anything but most importantly this is all happening with the lid off of the tub.
Looking for comments and suggestions on my design. Some foresight on what might go wrong etc etc or what might go right.
I was think ing that since theres so much passive fresh air exchange going on that this might work.
How do you guage passive air echange? With the lid just laying on the top with the tube from my homemade humidifier proping it open on one side it can hold the humidity really well but Im not sure how many air echanges its getting...


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Edited by camplo (08/30/08 07:23 PM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: What If I could keep Rh up high enough witht he lid off? [Re: camplo]
    #8853625 - 08/30/08 07:26 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I've ran shotgun terrariums with the lid off for oysters and lion's mane, and they maintain about 90%, or even higher with several mistings per day, which your fogger should emulate.  Since air exchange is the number 1 pinning trigger once full colonization is reached, if you can maintain humidity with the lid off, that's great.  Do it.
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Offlinecamplo
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Re: What If I could keep Rh up high enough witht he lid off? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8853675 - 08/30/08 07:36 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

First of all thanks for replying Mr rabbit I have much respect for you. Whenever I get confused on what direction to go and whos info to trust I pull out the compilation of your posts. I dont know what motivates you to give so much but I appreciate it.

But um yes sir I feel that maybe I might be able to leave my mark on the OMC with a tek for an open lid tub design. One thing Ive learned is that humidity leaves are very relative to the location that your hygrometer is in. So with that in mind I understood that it is most important for the the high humidity to be on the surface of your substrate or the casing on your substrate.

Im using my variation of a bubbleh/fogger and taking advantage of the fact that the heavy mist falls. I've ran some test and Ive gotten it adjusted low enough to the point where after 24 hours or so that only a little bit of mist accumulated as condensation on the surface of the bottom the tray.
What Im trying to factor in is how much MORE is going to evaporate from the substrate via the heat a sub produces and the subs high surface area (compared to the flat plastic bottom of my tray) and the added variant that the sub can absorb some of the moisture.
Any ideas?


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Edited by camplo (08/30/08 07:37 PM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: What If I could keep Rh up high enough witht he lid off? [Re: camplo]
    #8853693 - 08/30/08 07:40 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You want some evaporation, because evaporation of moisture from a substrate or casing layer is also a major pinning trigger.  The goal is to allow moisture to evaporate for a few hours, and then to replace that moisture just until the surface glistens, and then to dry out slightly again for a few hours before repeating the process.  That cycle is what you're looking for.  Just tweak your timers until you achieve the above.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Offlinecamplo
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Re: What If I could keep Rh up high enough witht he lid off? [Re: camplo]
    #8853701 - 08/30/08 07:42 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I must say that if I could guage my FAE and tune it down to 4 FAE an hour I could turn down the humidifier even more and hold the right RH plus even more eleminate threat of over saturation not that I might of already eleminated it....
Im going to guess that Im getting about 6 air exhcanges an hour because on average the humidity starts to drop after about 10 minutes if I turn the air supply to the fogger completely off. comments pleeeaase

OK I just read your post. I only have a timer that has 30 minute intervals at the moment. I want to get atleast one that has 15 minute intervals but a nice digi one would be nice =)


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Edited by camplo (08/30/08 08:04 PM)

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Offlinecamplo
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Re: What If I could keep Rh up high enough witht he lid off? [Re: camplo]
    #8954703 - 09/19/08 12:50 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ok so I birthed my sub early and its now living in the fruiting chamber. perfect time to get some experimenting done. I cant figure out what I should do.

Things I have tried.

What I did:
Adjusting to the point that 100% was held, if the humidifier was turned down anymore humidity would fall.
Result:
Substrate surface begin to dry  like due to the fact its getting so much fresh air. I could just mist it but thats not my goal.

Next:
Turn the humidifier on full blast, leave for about 4-5hours
Result:
come back to a not so exactly saturated sub but large water droplets developed on surface and I'm sure there was some water that drained to the sides to the bottom of the sub. I felt that the the dried out mycelium wasn't going to soak in the water (In hindsight it probably would have if I gave it time to do so) So I just dunked it again for about 2 hours. When I removed it the mycelium/surface was soft again. I probably would have gotten the same results if I just had of let the substrate sit long enough and turned the humidifier off.

Next:
Through experimenting I came to the notion that with the humidifier on full blast for and hour it gets the sub glistening and then after about an hour with the system off the surface gets to the point where its not so much glistening anymore. So I set it to hour on hour off.

Result:
Cant really say whether or not this was good enough because I birthed the damn thing so early its not going to pin anyway. But anyway I had a feeling that it wasnt drying off enough so the next day i tipped the sub to find several tablespoons of run off accumulated beneath the sub. Poured that out.

Next:
Adjusted the humidifier to half output. Left it that way for an evening and one night. Next day wake to a glistening slightly water beaded sub surface which means that eventually it would get to wet without a drying period.

Where I'm at in my head:

I understand that I need evaporation
If I find a humifier setting that allows hour on hour off  timings and no over saturation will I still get hypheal knots considering mainly this

When the humidifier is on 100% humidity (obviously)
When its off I want to say that RH is somewhere between 85-low 90's (evaporation from the sub is the only thing causing humidity the lid is off and so is humidifier). Now REMEMBER RH is on relative to where you measure it at. Im hypothesising that if the surface is glistening that as far as the mycelium is concerned its 100% rh in "its world".

I cant decide what direction to go in. please help.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: What If I could keep Rh up high enough witht he lid off? [Re: camplo]
    #8954769 - 09/19/08 01:06 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Substrate surface begin to dry  like due to the fact its getting so much fresh air. I could just mist it but thats not my goal.




It should be your goal.  The substrate or casing layer needs to dry out slightly, because evaporation of moisture is one of the most important pinning triggers.  Once moisture has partially evaporated from the growing media, you replace it with misting.  This moist, and then slightly dry cycle, is what produces best results.  Mushrooms form poorly from a saturated or steady-moisture state substrate.

Even at 99% humidity, if you provide proper air exchange, your substrate will dry out.  That's why we mist.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Offlinecamplo
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Re: What If I could keep Rh up high enough witht he lid off? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8955090 - 09/19/08 02:16 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Right
Thats what I was thinking but please answer me this.
If I follow a hour on hour off cycle will I still get hypheal knots.
My graphically explained-
The humidifier goes on, tub gets filled with fog, after about an hour the substrate is saturated to the point where the subs surface is glistening or even building up water droplets (if I let it go long enough)
Then it shuts off leaving only the sub to provide humidity.
Is this fine or no? Or am I double my waiting time by only exposing it to 100% humidity ever other hour for an hour? you get me? When the humidifier is off the substrates surface is more or less saturated with water and exposed to what ever RH is my grow room. I figured that it would be ok but I want to here YOU say its ok...

If this is ok then there wont be a need for me to manually mist is my point.


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Edited by camplo (09/19/08 02:18 PM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: What If I could keep Rh up high enough witht he lid off? [Re: camplo]
    #8955195 - 09/19/08 02:39 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I wouldn't do it that way.  Automation just doesn't perform well.  It might get you through for a few days in a bind if you had to leave town, but don't try to automate it full time. 

I'm an electrical engineer with a specialty in robotics and automation, so trust me when I say if I could fully automate a system and make it perform as well as my brain and muscles can, I'd have done it and posted the tek.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Offlinecamplo
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Re: What If I could keep Rh up high enough witht he lid off? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8955345 - 09/19/08 03:24 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Right once again,

So finally I propose this.

I know that I have such a large variable in control of humidity that while keeping 100% humidity at all times, depending on how I adjust my system i can over saturate the sub or have it dry out.

With that being said do you think I could do things like,
Turn up the system to get it saturated, then turn it back down low enough to just hold humidity.
OR
Try to find different balancing points to where I could turn it all the way to saturate the sub then turn it down to a balancing point where the evaporation is slightly higher than the moisture being provided so that it takes longer than normal to evaporate.

Everything else aside, answer me this and I think I'll have all the info I need. How dry can I let it get before  it becomes critical to performance. Because I am really afraid of letting it dry out TOO much as I don't know what TOO much is. Please explain what TOO dry would look or feel like to the touch as well as any irreversible effect or things that have to be done, extra, to recondition.

Edited by camplo (09/19/08 03:35 PM)

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What If I could keep Rh up high enough witht he lid off? [Re: camplo]
    #8955434 - 09/19/08 03:50 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I run (almost) fully automated, though I tweak the hydration throughout the grow. This is an interesting read, since I wasn't aware a casing at field capacity wouldn't perform as well as one that's left to dry.

However, my fogging cycles generally lend themselves to this process. It's about impossible to maintain an even moisture level in the casings, the hydration will either be slowly building, or slowly leaving. To prevent over saturation, I make sure that the casings get slightly less water than they need... right up until pinset, at which point I start pumping the fog in.

Of course, left on, non stop, a fogger would drench a casing even if shrooms are forming, but those shrooms pull a ton of water out of the sub, and using timing intervals, I've found it difficult to maintain/regain field capacity while the shrooms are growing. The casings are always a little dry after the first flush. I continue heavy fogging after the flush, attain field capacity, and then drop fog levels back down. Works pretty good, and only requires that I turn a dial a few times, and fill the humidifier as needed.

I've been hoping that others would get interested, and I'd start seeing variable repeat cycle timers showing up here. The 15 minute timers have limitations when it comes to using an ultrasonic.


--------------------
rahz

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"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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Offlinecamplo
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Re: What If I could keep Rh up high enough with he lid off? [Re: Rahz]
    #8955519 - 09/19/08 04:18 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Actually MY humidifier is adjustable isn't yours?  :hehehe:
Naw I'm joking, I kid I kid.
I can adjust can adjust the air flow on mine so that it can be on constantly and either saturate or dry the sub asap or eventually.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What If I could keep Rh up high enough with he lid off? [Re: camplo]
    #8955545 - 09/19/08 04:25 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Mine has two settings that can be adjusted, but the lowest setting is still too much for 24/7 operation. :cryariver:

I'm tinkering around with a new project involving a DIY humidifier... but still curious what make and model your fogger is.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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Offlinecamplo
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Re: What If I could keep Rh up high enough with he lid off? [Re: Rahz]
    #8955558 - 09/19/08 04:27 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I just have some type of pond fogger in a gallon glass jar powered by a good sized air pump which I have incorporated a valve into the air line. I used a cut up vacuum cleaner hose for the output. Nothing special.


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Offlinecamplo
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Re: What If I could keep Rh up high enough with he lid off? [Re: camplo]
    #9033258 - 10/05/08 04:18 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I have a quote of RR sying that if you have a high enough humidity that you dont need to mist an uncased sub. What gives

"It's only a casing if it has a casing. The casing is the top layer, not a generic name for tray culture. You are fruiting an uncased bulk substrate.

You want as close to one hundred percent humidity as you can get. I'd use three inches of damp, but not wet perlite covering the whole bottom of the tub. If you keep it at or above 95% humidity, you won't need to mist. Be sure to give plenty of air exchange.
RR"

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What If I could keep Rh up high enough with he lid off? [Re: camplo]
    #9034787 - 10/05/08 09:43 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

If the humidity is 99%, there won't be enough water loss to affect the flush to any big degree I'd guess.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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