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Offlinemagic man
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Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds
    #8831336 - 08/26/08 04:07 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

could any one tell me the uk law with the Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds

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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: magic man]
    #8831395 - 08/26/08 04:18 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

not entirely sure on the UK laws but i would presume its perfectly legal to posses, but illegal to ingest or specifically set out to extract the "active" ingredients.

just courious as to why you ask might help in finding the answer you looking for.


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Offlinemagic man
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: magic man]
    #8831516 - 08/26/08 04:42 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

u wot?

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Offlinemagic man
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: magic man]
    #8831527 - 08/26/08 04:44 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

if u donbt ask u dont get

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Offlinenumonkei
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: magic man]
    #8831562 - 08/26/08 04:51 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

wrong forum, guy. check out the cable of tontents.




~Monk

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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: magic man]
    #8831578 - 08/26/08 04:54 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

OK now I'm thoroughly confused.:confused:


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Offlinenumonkei
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8831592 - 08/26/08 04:59 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, I hate this Coaster-type too.

Lock-able?



~Monk

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: numonkei]
    #8831696 - 08/26/08 05:29 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

ALmost certainly illegal.


In the us they are anyways.

LSA is a controlled substance, hence its illegal without normal permits.


Same with uk I'd imagine.


People always say its not illegal to posses for decorative or gardening or whatever, but this is nonsense.  While it is true an innocent possesor in the US, who didn't not know they had LSA or drugs could avoid criminal sanctions, they are still illegal.  And since nobody is able to shut their mouths, everyone would get convicted.

But as a practical matter, I doubt you'd be looked into unless you ran your mouth.  They are likely illegal but unknown, relativly, and of no consequence.


Again, I only know the US law, but I'd be very surprised if there was a difference.

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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: johnm214]
    #8831745 - 08/26/08 05:43 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

you clearly don't know the US laws very well then. the seeds them selves are perfectly legal, however are often coated in mild toxins to discourage ingestion among other things and and are by themselves certifably 100% legal. just like spores in most states. so the item itself has not been made illegal at all, instead the intention is what is subject to legal actions.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: johnm214]
    #8831930 - 08/26/08 06:23 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
ALmost certainly illegal.
In the us they are anyways.

LSA is a controlled substance, hence its illegal without normal permits.





HBWR and Morning Glory are both legal seeds in the US, I think you may be confusing it with something else unless there was a recent scheduling

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8832858 - 08/26/08 09:14 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:
you clearly don't know the US laws very well then. the seeds them selves are perfectly legal, however are often coated in mild toxins to discourage ingestion among other things and and are by themselves certifably 100% legal. just like spores in most states. so the item itself has not been made illegal at all, instead the intention is what is subject to legal actions.





Source?  Are you just spouting the intent to consume nonsense that people post but never cite?  If not, what intent are you talkig about?  I never said the seeds are subject to legal action, I said they are illegal.  If you posses them intentionally and know they contain LSA, or have knowledge of the drug content being ignorant of the name, you are breaking the law however.  And I don't know why you'd conclude I don't know the law very well, whatever that means, based on my statements.  Please provide citations as to my misconceptions.

21 USC 844 
Quote:

It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly or intentionally to possess a controlled substance unless such substance was obtained directly, or pursuant to a valid prescription or order, from a practitioner, while acting in the course of his professional practice, or except as otherwise authorized by this subchapter or subchapter II of this chapter.




21 USC 812(c) at schedule III
Quote:

Schedules I, II, III, IV, and V shall, unless and until amended [1] pursuant to section 811 of this title, consist of the following drugs or other substances, by whatever official name, common or usual name, chemical name, or brand name designated:



(b)
Quote:


Unless specifically excepted or unless listed in another schedule, any material, compound, mixture, or preparation which contains any quantity of the following substances having a depressant effect on the central nervous system:
(4) Lysergic acid.
(5) Lysergic acid amide.




Therefore morning glory/HBWR are illegal and if you knowingly posses them you can be sued or go to jail.


Now lets see where your citations...

How are they 100% legal and are not made illegal yet?  And what intention are you talking about that makes them illegal?  Citations please.

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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: johnm214]
    #8833435 - 08/26/08 11:02 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

its not a matter of citations... its matter of practical interpretation of the laws.

let me lay out a scenario for you

i just recently bought a pergola and my father wants it to be cover in vines as quickly as possible seeing as we acquired it rather late in the growing season I'm ordering either HBWR or morning glory seeds, based not on the fact that they contain any scheduled substance but rather for there innate beauty and renown rate of growth. so if i happen to have some seeds laying around there is no reason to believe that i ingest them recreationally, unless i give them reason to believe i do.(munching them in front of them, or having extract/ ext ration equipment readily found in a manner that prove i was deliberately extracting the compounds that are in fact scheduled controlled substances)

some substances happen to be found in rather common items but the possession of them is not consider enough to convict someone. (low levels of DMT can be found in some grasses and one type is sometimes used to feed livestock if I'm not mistaken)




you wanted citation tho so after short period of browsing the DEA website if stumbled on this in

TITLE 21 - FOOD AND DRUGS
CHAPTER 13 - DRUG ABUSE PREVENTION AND CONTROL
SUBCHAPTER I - CONTROL AND ENFORCEMENT
Part B - Authority To Control; Standards and Schedules.





(3) The Attorney General may, by regulation, exempt any compound, mixture, or preparation containing a controlled substance from the application of all or any part of this subchapter if he finds such compound, mixture, or preparation meets the requirements of one of the following categories:

(A) A mixture, or preparation containing a nonnarcotic controlled substance, which mixture or preparation is approved for prescription use, and which contains one or more other active ingredients which are not listed in any schedule and which are included therein in such combinations, quantity, proportion, or concentration as to vitiate the potential for abuse.

(B) A compound, mixture, or preparation which contains any controlled substance, which is not for administration to a human being or animal, and which is packaged in such form or concentration, or with adulterants or denaturants, so that as packaged it does not present any significant potential for abuse.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8834485 - 08/27/08 06:43 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:
its not a matter of citations... its matter of practical interpretation of the laws.


(B) A compound, mixture, or preparation which contains any controlled substance, which is not for administration to a human being or animal, and which is packaged in such form or concentration, or with adulterants or denaturants, so that as packaged it does not present any significant potential for abuse.





what adulterants are added to HBWR seeds to prevent consumption?

we already know morning glory seeds are treated prior to packaging and sale

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8834541 - 08/27/08 07:08 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

> what adulterants are added to HBWR seeds to prevent consumption?

Heavy metals, such as mercury, typically.


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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: Seuss]
    #8835433 - 08/27/08 11:30 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

significant potential for abuse

This is key here. even untreated seeds although less common still remain entirely legal. what you have to understand is the plant that grows from these seeds is legal and has no reason not to be. and since signifigant potential does not exist for some one chompin down on some seeds not particularly grown for human or animal consumition, the seeds them self despite conquincedently containing a controled substance DO NOT present a SIGNIFICANT potential for abuse.

On the other hand you have marijuana seeds, which contain trace amounts of THC, but low potential for direct consumtion for this purpose. however they reamain illegal not be cause of this THC content but because the by product of growth is illegal.

further more consider the poppy plant. the seeds contain small amounts of oppiods. can you buy a poppyseed bagel at just about any super market dunkin' donuts or bakery? of course you can because the seeds posses an insignifcant potential of abuse. and have a few low opiat producing poppys in you garden is not considered illegal. however if you are growing the poppy "somniferum L. elite"(a high opiat content species) in large quanities your intentions are clearly illegal.


so as ive said before the seeds by themselves are doubtfully enough evidence to convict some one of intention to ingest a controlled subtance. however if the cops bust in and find them in a pepper grinder, mashed up in the process of extration or in addition to extracted LSA, they have no grounds to prove you planned on munchin them to trip, especially if you have already planted them/have them growing on your property. if you were for some reason arrested with HBWR/MG seeds any decent lawyer should be able to get those charges dropped so long as it is not in conjunction to other charges or the is significant evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you intended to consume/ produce LSA contian in the seeds.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8835644 - 08/27/08 12:15 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

> even untreated seeds although less common still remain entirely legal.

At best, it is a gray area, at least in the US.  Federal law is pretty clear.  For example, nobody would argue that P. Cubensis mushrooms are illegal in the US.  However, they are not listed as illegal.  However, psilocybin is scheduled (illegal).  Because P. Cubensis contains psilocybin, P. Cubensis is illegal. By the same logic, seeds that contain a scheduled substance, such as LSA, are also illegal, yet you can walk into a walmart and buy a package of these seeds.  But wait, it gets more insane.  P. Cubensis spores do not contain psilocybin, and are not illegal.  However, if you intend to grow mushrooms from the legal spores, they become illegal.  It is a messed up system.

Can you purchase LSA containing seeds in the US?  Certainly.  Are they legal?  By the letter of the law, not really.  Are they sold anyway?  Yep.  I certainly wouldn't want to push it in a court of law.  Try setting up a website that sells LSA containing seeds for the express purpose of extracting LSA to get high and see how long it takes before you land in prison.  My guess, less than a year.


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OfflineChemy
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds *DELETED* [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8835655 - 08/27/08 12:16 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: Chemy]
    #8835721 - 08/27/08 12:28 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

your right intent doesnt have anything to do with a crime of possesion.... how ever it does with a charge of intent to manufacture/distribute a controlled substance.


im not arguing that the seeds don't contain LSA or that LSA is it self illegal im arguing asto whether you could be convicted of a crime based solely on the possesion of the seeds alone. so me some precedent on that and ill shut up.

unfortunately the law is written in black and which while the enforcement of the laws follows a gray scale.


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OfflineChemy
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds *DELETED* [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8835831 - 08/27/08 12:54 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

Edited by Chemy (08/27/08 01:03 PM)

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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: Chemy]
    #8836146 - 08/27/08 01:55 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I am really curious of this subject since i will be ordering them shortly for legimate non-recreational purposes.

by your logic poppy seeds are also illegal as they have been proven to contain (all be it minute) opiates, such as codiene, morphine, and thebaine, which are schedule II. technically yes it is illegal, but is, has, and can it be legitamately and practically enforced?

so in order to for me to grow these plants in order to vine cover my pergola to aviod any remaote chance of confusion, i must buy pre germinated plants? what about when they reach full maturity and start producing seeds of their own?

it is illegal to consume theese seeds but i don't see how you could be convicted for possesion with out any other eveidence to prove you have or planned to consume them or preform an extraction of the LSA.


seems to me this arguement has been reduced to a case of technicallity Vs. practicality.... you would probably claim im being technical and you practical and i vice versa...


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