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 johnm214
 
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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 Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? 
#8745226 - 08/08/08 05:06 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thought this would be fun. Compare yourself to other posters that you feel are most similar in their views to your own political philosophy. And different, and those that drive you crazy.
I think I'm most similar to Seuss and Redstorm in my views. Probably diecommie too, but I don't see him post too much currently. I think all of us are for freedom, which includes the right to be a potsmoking hippy as it does the right to open a buisness and sell for whatever the market will bear and hire people for whatever they'll agree to work for.
I think we're against government interference and for personal responsibility. The later of which should only be tempered with criminal and civil enforcement when someone has wronged another's rights- which only include the right to their body and associations (contracts, friends, buisness, property, et cet).
I'll have to think who I'm most different from.
People that drive me crazy?
Phred, defiantly. I think its cuz I'm pretty similar to him- I think. We both believe in the same role of government, more or less, and we both believe in personal freedom. I just disagree with his support of things like the war, in some cases, and occasional defense of conservative politicians.
I don't care for his insistance on the liberal bias, cuz I don't really know how you can tell, and haven't seen evidence that supports his beliefs.
Much of the above is similar to zappaisgod too. I like alot of his beliefs. He used to drive me crazy but I don't think I totally understood his positions before. Again, I disagree with him on the war and often on other things. Phred and zappa are similar enough to me to drive me crazy when we don't agree.
How about you?
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 Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: johnm214]
#8745392 - 08/08/08 05:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I was going to say you for who my beliefs are most like. A free market advocate who is at the same time pretty pragmatic. Also, very interested in political and judicial theory.
Who drives me crazy? Pretty much anyone who doesn't agree with me. I agree with you on the Phred thing. Zappa doesn't really bother me because he irritates a lot of the people who irritate me. What really frustrates me are the people who want to limit what I do with my life, especially my property rights and rights to my income.
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Smackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation
Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 575
Last seen: 3 months, 4 days
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: Redstorm]
#8745551 - 08/08/08 06:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Not sure who is most like me. Basically, I believe that when it comes to it, I am a social libertarian, but economically liberal. I like the free market, but I don't believe that a totally unfettered free mark is obtainable. It is not the invisible hand of the free marked it is the imaginary hand of the free market.
If anyone believes this or something close to it, let me know, I would love to define these ideas a little further. Also I will up date this post once I have a better idea who is like me.
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The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
~H. L. Mencken~
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: Smackshadow]
#8745775 - 08/08/08 07:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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The only thing I can remember vehemently disagreeing with Phred about is Natural Rights. Nobody drives me crazy.
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: johnm214]
#8746557 - 08/08/08 09:47 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Baby_Hitler
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: it stars saddam]
#8747885 - 08/09/08 08:05 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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As this topic isin't a political discussion, wouldn't it be better off in P&S or the pub?
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Luddite
I watch Fox News
Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: Visionary Tools]
#8748059 - 08/09/08 09:19 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: Luddite]
#8748112 - 08/09/08 09:51 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Most like: Evolving, Mushmaster. Where art thou?
Drives me crazy: I wouldn't say he drives me crazy, but Phred perplexes me. When I came to this board over half a decade ago as a political blank slate, this incredibly eloquent guy named PinkSharkMark day by day convinced me of the incredible beauty and logic of freedom and liberty. I can't even begin to calculate how much of my life since then has been spent in the pursuit of knowledge pertaining to these ideals and notions I gathered from a random guy on a Shroom forum.
What perplexes me is that he has seemingly gone from an intellectual role model to a near-complete Republican partisan. His support for a belligerent foreign policy is, to me, unconscionable, and goes against everything I learned both from him and since about what liberty means.
This isn't to say I don't respect the guy and it's not to say I'm not grateful for what he (unwittingly) did for me, but it's always a bit depressing to be disappointed by a role model, as lame as that sounds. (I recall the story of a young Chinese girl who grew up during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, and so revered Mao as a god. Upon being granted leave to visit him towards the very end of his life, she saw not a vibrant and omnipotent god but an old, frail man on his death bed. She was aghast and enraged.)
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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: Ancalagon]
#8748518 - 08/09/08 11:50 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
What perplexes me is that he has seemingly gone from an intellectual role model to a near-complete Republican partisan.
LOL!
If you truly believe this, you aren't reading as closely as you were half a decade ago.
You confuse my deconstruction of the incredibly partisan, ill-informed, and often outright dishonest attacks directed against the current administration with support or admiration for the current administration. This is not the case - not even close to the case.
I spend the majority of my time on this forum pointing out and correcting bullshit. Since most of the posters here are left-leaning (including more than a few who hate George W. Bush with a completely unreasoning and near-pathological intensity), the majority of the bullshit posted here is aimed against the right side of the political spectrum. Therefore, the "target-rich environment" spread out before me on a daily basis usually gives me around an order of magnitude more anti-right bullshit to debunk than anti-left bullshit. Some, however, is aimed against the left side of the spectrum, and I have often addressed that, as well - see my defense of Bill Clinton a few years back when people were claiming if Clinton had done such and such or so and so the September 11 attacks wouldn't have occurred. The thing is, there are so many more Libbie and Leftie posters here than Righties that usually by the time I spot some piece of crap aimed at a Libbie/Leftie public figure, three or four of the Libbie regulars have beat me to the punch and addressed it adequately. Anything I could add would be redundant.
I learned a long, long time ago that it doesn't matter how intelligent one is and how much time one spends carefully thinking things through if the data one is basing the exercise upon is faulty. That's why so many of the posters here hold truly ridiculous stances on so many issues - it's not that they're stupid or intellectually lazy, but that they accept as factual things which simply aren't true.
This is why my favorite posters here are those who debunk bullshit.
Quote:
His support for a belligerent foreign policy...
By which I suppose you mean the fact that I don't vigorously condemn Spain, Italy, Australia, England, the United States and others for resuming hostilities in the Gulf in March of 2003, even though I have stated at least fifty times over the last five years that I remain unconvinced -- yes, even today, with the war 90% won -- it was correct of them to take the action they did at the time they chose to take it. Once again you mischaracterize my position as "support". I'm still pretty much on the fence about the whole thing, but I'm not so blinded by Bush hatred that I can't recognize the good things which have resulted from the resumption of hostilities.
As for "belligerence", free nations have the right to protect themselves and their allies from those who pose a credible threat to them. Anyone who thoroughly and honestly examined the available facts in early 2003 must admit that Hussein and his cronies and henchmen in 2003 posed a credible threat to at least several countries and ethnic groups. All that's left to decide is exactly how great the threat to exactly which countries. Was it great enough that the damage caused by the resumption of hostilities by the coalition countries was less than the damage of having had Hussein and the Ba'athists in charge in Iraq for the last five years? I'll tell you honestly that I personally still don't know. How can anyone know?
Despite what so many of the posters on this board seem to believe, life is not always about choosing between a good action and a bad action. Sometimes the only choice available is between bad and worse.
Something else so many of the posters on this board seem not to grasp is that just as actions have consequences, so does inaction. If Hussein had been left in power in 2003, he sure as shit would have either pulled off some very nasty new stuff (as well as continuing his old nasty stuff) himself by now or given enough support and resources to one or several of the many MANY stateless malefactors supported by his government for one or several of them to have pulled off some nasty new stuff by now. Just how nasty and frequent said incidents might have been is a matter of conjecture, but to pretend there would have been none is ridiculous. As just one example - given the bellicose stance of Ahmadinejad on developing nukes for Iran, do you think Hussein wouldn't have restarted his nuke program?
Is it possible the governments of the coalition countries overestimated the threat Hussein posed? Sure. But whose fault was that?
You somehow seem to think I've abandoned the philosophy which intrigued you so much five years ago. Such is not the case at all. You simply have a different evaluation of the threat posed by Hussein than I do. My application of the philosophical principles I've espoused since my first post on this forum is no different today than it was seven years ago.
Phred
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: Phred]
#8748542 - 08/09/08 11:54 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I wanna hear who drives you crazy, especially now that Alex is gone. 
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: Phred]
#8748665 - 08/09/08 12:23 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I don't have the leisure to reply at length, but I would like to contest one point:
Quote:
By which I suppose you mean the fact that I don't vigorously condemn Spain, Italy, Australia, England, the United States and others for resuming hostilities in the Gulf in March of 2003, even though I have stated at least fifty times over the last five years that I remain unconvinced -- yes, even today, with the war 90% won -- it was correct of them to take the action they did at the time they chose to take it. Once again you mischaracterize my position as "support". I'm still pretty much on the fence about the whole thing, but I'm not so blinded by Bush hatred that I can't recognize the good things which have resulted from the resumption of hostilities.
As for "belligerence", free nations have the right to protect themselves and their allies from those who pose a credible threat to them. Anyone who thoroughly and honestly examined the available facts in early 2003 must admit that Hussein and his cronies and henchmen in 2003 posed a credible threat to at least several countries and ethnic groups. All that's left to decide is exactly how great the threat to exactly which countries. Was it great enough that the damage caused by the resumption of hostilities by the coalition countries was less than the damage of having had Hussein and the Ba'athists in charge in Iraq for the last five years? I'll tell you honestly that I personally still don't know. How can anyone know?
...
You somehow seem to think I've abandoned the philosophy which intrigued you so much five years ago. Such is not the case at all. You simply have a different evaluation of the threat posed by Hussein than I do. My application of the philosophical principles I've espoused since my first post on this forum is no different today than it was seven years ago.
I won't pretend to know your mind better than you yourself do, but the above is demonstrative of my disagreement. What intrigued me was the ineluctable logic of applying the non-aggression axiom -- that it is unjust for man to initiate force or fraud against another man -- without discrimination. Stealing is bad whether one individual does it, or whether many individuals styling themselves the government do it. Slavery is bad whether one individual does it, or whether many individuals styling themselves the government do it. Murder is bad whether one individual does it, or whether many individuals styling themselves the government do it.
You're right Phred, there is a continuum on which decisions have to be made, even within the confines of something like the above; the world is shades of gray, not black and white. But I, and I daresay the vast majority of those who consider themselves libertarians, consider Iraq to not even have been a close call. Iraq posed NOTHING in the way of an immediate threat to the United States, and that is the only basis on which something as abominable (and liberty-effacing) as war should be carried out.
Your post is full of utilitarianism. That is where I think you have changed. You wrestle with yourself about whether or not the ends, neutralizing an unpredictable and perhaps/maybe/potentially down-the-road dangerous power, justify the means (initiating force against a nation, causing the deaths of many thousands and creating a situation in which millions of others either die or have their lives shattered). This was not a ticking time-bomb scenario; it was unbridled aggression in every sense of the word.
I'm not out to convince you of the error of your ways. You are set in your views as I am in mine. I both respect that and lament it.
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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: Ancalagon]
#8748706 - 08/09/08 12:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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The United States and allies did not "initiate" force against Saddam Hussein any more than a parole officer revoking parole is kidnapping the parolee. That is your error.
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8748732 - 08/09/08 12:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
The United States and allies did not "initiate" force against Saddam Hussein any more than a parole officer revoking parole is kidnapping the parolee. That is your error.
Was Saddam Hussein the only victim of our 'aggression'? If he was, we can discuss your case.
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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: Ancalagon]
#8748752 - 08/09/08 12:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Was Saddam Hussein the only Iraqi who participated in the invasion of Kuwait? The only "aggression" was by Iraq.
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8748797 - 08/09/08 12:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Was Saddam Hussein the only Iraqi who participated in the invasion of Kuwait? The only "aggression" was by Iraq.
And so every Iraqi, born or unborn at the time of that invasion, is liable to be killed by the ...United States(!)?
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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8748971 - 08/09/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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zappaisgod tells Ancalagon
Quote:
The United States and allies did not "initiate" force against Saddam Hussein any more than a parole officer revoking parole is kidnapping the parolee. That is your error.
Exactly so, Ancalagon.
You choose to interpret the enforcement of the terms of the Conditional Ceasefire as "initiating aggression" against the Hussein regime. Clearly, it was not.
Hostilities were temporarily suspended in 1991 and Hussein was allowed to remain in control of Iraq (shamefully allowed, in my opinion... he should have been deposed in 1991, but hey... can't change the past) only under the conditions that he fulfill the terms of the signed agreement. He was given twelve years and umpteen official reminders to comply. He was given several last chance ultimatums by the Bush administration to either step down or see troops cross the borders of Iraq. Hussein could at any time have avoided all this. If he had played by the rules he agreed to play by, he would still be running Iraq today. Or, at worst, sitting on a billion dollars worth of booty in some friendly country other than Iraq.
Having said that, the coalition member countries could have just let it slide for another twelve years. As I have said over and over and over again in this forum for the last five years, the coalition countries certainly had no obligation to resume hostilities. They could not have been rightfully impugned for just sitting on their hands like the rest of the world and leaving the Iraqis to their fate.
Ancalagon writes:
Quote:
But I, and I daresay the vast majority of those who consider themselves libertarians, consider Iraq to not even have been a close call. Iraq posed NOTHING in the way of an immediate threat to the United States, and that is the only basis on which something as abominable (and liberty-effacing) as war should be carried out.
I think you are as far off base with your evaluation of Hussein's threat potential as it is possible to be, but that's beside the point. Reasonable people can study the same evidence and arrive at different conclusions. Happens all the time.
I am intrigued with the second part of your declaration, though -
Quote:
Iraq posed NOTHING in the way of an immediate threat to the United States, and that is the only basis on which something as abominable (and liberty-effacing) as war should be carried out.
So - to apply your philosophy consistently - you also oppose the United States invasion of Hitler's Europe in 1944. Interesting.
Phred
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: Phred]
#8749012 - 08/09/08 01:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
So - to apply your philosophy consistently - you also oppose the United States invasion of Hitler's Europe in 1944. Interesting.
A reminder that Hitler's Europe declared war on the United States. Prior to that declaration, yes, I'd have opposed an American invasion of Europe in the absence of an imminent German attack against the United States. I'd have opposed an American invasion of Japan prior to Pearl Harbor for the same reasons.
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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: Phred]
#8749068 - 08/09/08 01:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
You choose to interpret the enforcement of the terms of the Conditional Ceasefire as "initiating aggression" against the Hussein regime. Clearly, it was not.
so there really were WMDs in iraq after all  ...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: Ancalagon]
#8749079 - 08/09/08 02:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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There's ten thousand billion threads about this. Can we get back on topic?
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: Who here are you most like in political philosophy? Different? Drives you crazy? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8749148 - 08/09/08 02:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
There's ten thousand billion threads about this. Can we get back on topic?
Are you fucking serious? Reread this thread from my first post on. I made two posts, the first of which was in response to the OP, the second of which was in response to a reply to my first post (and still very much on-topic). You then jumped in and asked a very targeted, single-issue question directly to me.
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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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