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 OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
 
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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 HAL 9000's death 
#8743402 - 08/08/08 11:00 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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In the fictional movie "2001", HAL is a seemingly sentient artificial intelligence (re: a highly advanced computer). HAL appears to have a psychotic break and must be shut down.
Quote:
As the icy Dr. Bowman marches through the ship on his way to disconnect the computer, HAL's bravado quickly washes away, to be replaced by a fearful, near-whining stream of pleas. HAL is afraid of death. This is a good candidate for the most powerful scene in 2001; HAL is trying to scream, but he doesn't know how. He's not programmed to do that.
The human reaction to trauma is said to be typified by four stages: shock, denial, bargaining, and acceptance. It could be argued that HAL's monologue here reflects that pattern, if loosely. Also, of course, as his cerebral functions are being deactivated, HAL undergoes a regression--reliving, as it were, his childhood.2 This is playing on one of the central themes of the movie--what is the nature of humanity? What do you call a computer that follows human psychological patterns? Clearly, you call it HAL, but that isn't the point. The point is, he's acting like a human, so we ascribe human emotions to him, even though he cannot and does not express them in the slightest bit beyond toneless verbiage.
In this powerful scene, some viewers express sympathy, some gleeful revenge, and some find it silly that a machine would beg to live.
Few however, find it silly that a human would fear death (brain disconnect).
If we (humans) are unable to determine yay or nay as to whether or not future machines possess self-awareness (see: Turing Machine), then perhaps there is no magical state - merely an affect from significant processing and data storage.
As machines become more powerful and there is one day a seemingly self-aware machine, it will not be due to any magic dust or injection of an ethereal soul, but a threshold may be passed or some new type of processing will be discovered/implemented.
Again, I see the same for biological entities. There is a reasonably linear progression of awareness from lower to higher animals without the need of injecting mystical components into the equation.
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:it will not be due to any magic dust or injection of an ethereal soul
Clearly, you've never tried shooting up a soul into your veins. What a rush! 
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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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I agree. Some day computers/machines will have all the characteristics of sentient, self awareness that we do. They will have hopes, fears, aspirations and regrets. You speak of a threshold that must be passed... I agree here as well, it is not 'fairy dust' or some unobservable soul. I believe it is in fact complexity. There is a complexity threshold at which out of the basic interactions and properties sentience emerges. Sentience, like the life it is currently associated with, is an emergent property. All we need is a system of proper complexity and construction and we have sentience.
The human mind has between 1 and 10 TB worth of storage according to current researchers. My computers at home have about 1.5 TB worth of storage right now. According to Moore's law (where computers double in processing speed every 18 months, which has been accurate for over 30 years) in 50 or 60 years all the computers on earth will have a combined processing power of a human brain. By 2100 one computer will have the processing power of the entire human species. Its only a matter of time before we have to share the planet with self aware intelligences alien to us, yet created right here on the same planet.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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 Re: HAL 9000's death [Re: DieCommie]
#8743743 - 08/08/08 12:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
The human mind has between 1 and 10 TB worth of storage according to current researchers. My computers at home have about 1.5 TB worth of storage right now. According to Moore's law (where computers double in processing speed every 18 months, which has been accurate for over 30 years) in 50 or 60 years all the computers on earth will have a combined processing power of a human brain. By 2100 one computer will have the processing power of the entire human species.
Interesting idea! Do you think that we have a complete understanding of the processing speed and capability of the human brain? If we truly want to consider the potential for sentience (experiencing sensations), as well as intellectual self-awareness, we would have to imagine a computer with five senses AND short-term memory (RAM) AND long-term memory (hard drive), with the processing ability to synthesize information from all three sources, WHILE dealing with real-time input from all five senses.
Even with the incredible advancements in technology I've seen in the past three decades, it seems quite unlikely that we could create self-aware, sentient AI within the next five or six decades. I do agree that consciousness is most likely an emergent property, yet I think that we have an incomplete grasp of all the elements of our own complexity. We may create AI which approaches some aspects of human cognition, but I think we'll have a long wait (if it happens at all) for the pinnacle of AI achievement to occur.
It's all very interesting, though! I would think that the creation of AI which even approached human cognition would engender serious doubts in the concept of God and Creationism. Or perhaps he will smite us before we get the chance. 
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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I was C-3PO in a past life. 
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: HAL 9000's death [Re: Veritas]
#8743905 - 08/08/08 12:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Edited by DieCommie (11/09/16 05:17 PM)
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,336
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I'm not so sure computers can be conscious. The key may have more to do with chemistry, rather than processing capability and advanced storage and data logging. I've read that people are working on biological computers, but I think we'll have to figure out how the magic juice works, before that happens.
IOW, a computer, inadvertently developing consciousness, probably isn't going to happen. Just my opinion.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Edited by Rahz (08/08/08 12:50 PM)
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: 
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Quote:
Again, I see the same for biological entities. There is a reasonably linear progression of awareness from lower to higher animals without the need of injecting mystical components into the equation.
Maybe creation, or self emulation is just another step in the "evolutionary" ladder.
How would you go about programing human emotion, and the physiological responses that they originate from into a computer? That is assuming we aren't talking about some sort of biotech hybrid.
Edited by blewmeanie (08/08/08 12:54 PM)
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: HAL 9000's death [Re: DieCommie]
#8743959 - 08/08/08 12:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Creating intelligence as a conscious directed effort in a lab would make you have doubts that humans could be intelligently designed?
No, I meant that it would raise doubts as to the "requirement" of the existence of an all-powerful supernatural being for consciousness to exist. If we can create consciousness through intentional increases in specific aspects of complexity, it points to an evolutionary origin as opposed to a magical one.
I enjoy hearing your thoughts on this subject! I agree that we have a rough estimate of the power of the human brain. Do you think that "errors" would need to be built in to the AI brain in order to approximate human consciousness? I'm thinking of fuzzy logic, emotionality, endocrine influences, imperfect recall of events, perceptual editing/colorization/exaggeration, and the like. What part do you think these "flaws" play in our ability to be self-aware?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,173
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Re: HAL 9000's death [Re: Veritas]
#8743975 - 08/08/08 12:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
The human mind has between 1 and 10 TB worth of storage according to current researchers. My computers at home have about 1.5 TB worth of storage right now. According to Moore's law (where computers double in processing speed every 18 months, which has been accurate for over 30 years) in 50 or 60 years all the computers on earth will have a combined processing power of a human brain. By 2100 one computer will have the processing power of the entire human species.
Interesting idea! Do you think that we have a complete understanding of the processing speed and capability of the human brain? If we truly want to consider the potential for sentience (experiencing sensations), as well as intellectual self-awareness, we would have to imagine a computer with five senses AND short-term memory (RAM) AND long-term memory (hard drive), with the processing ability to synthesize information from all three sources, WHILE dealing with real-time input from all five senses.
Even with the incredible advancements in technology I've seen in the past three decades, it seems quite unlikely that we could create self-aware, sentient AI within the next five or six decades. I do agree that consciousness is most likely an emergent property, yet I think that we have an incomplete grasp of all the elements of our own complexity. We may create AI which approaches some aspects of human cognition, but I think we'll have a long wait (if it happens at all) for the pinnacle of AI achievement to occur.
It's all very interesting, though! I would think that the creation of AI which even approached human cognition would engender serious doubts in the concept of God and Creationism. Or perhaps he will smite us before we get the chance.
using ram and disk it will certainly be possible to create emulators of our stream of consciousness, complete with emulation of holographic memory and motif processing, and a cadence system (like our cerebellum).
however if we actually build an analog holographic memory system with a cadence subsystem like our own, (also possible in less than 50 years) - not just a digital emulator - it can be conscious without emulation and it will use less energy, and resources, however it will not be easy to add or remove memories, except in the case of automatic functioning routines which could be plug-ins.
Note a plug in for Karate, would still need to be learned, in the same way we learn to ride a bike, or learn to use your natural music or math abilities.
for that matter, in 50 years, why not get plug in's for people too.
it may be possible to plug in differnt kinds of eyes and ears, but transitions would not be too trivial.
it was a relief when Hal died, but I was sad for him too.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
It was a relief when Hal died, but I was sad for him too.
Really? I found his emotionless voice very creepy. It was not possible for me to emotionally connect with his experience, because he was not demonstrating any emotions.
(I have a similar reaction to both Bush and Cheney. )
Quote:
Note a plug in for Karate, would still need to be learned, in the same way we learn to ride a bike, or learn to use your natural music or math abilities.
Do you think that an AI unit would need to progress through gestation, infancy, childhood, and so on in order to "learn" full self-awareness? How much impact does our physicality and gradual layering and editing of experiences have on our consciousness?
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: HAL 9000's death [Re: Rahz]
#8744008 - 08/08/08 12:57 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Perhaps the way to create consciousness in a computer would not be to plan and engineer the thing at all... Perhaps we must approach the problem with the solution we already know. That is, we (roughly) know how consciousness was created in the one place we observe it (us). It was created by a few million generations of selective pressures coupled with mutations of the basic code. So I foresee one day scientists trying the same thing with computers. When the hardware is advanced enough, start with code that has an information entropy equal to or in excess of our DNA (make sure the code has more bits than the code known to create consciousness, DNA). Even if the code is un-complex, doesnt matter, just make it able to copy itself. Then set about a process of copying the code (reproducing), randomly changing a few bits here or there (mutations), and then 'selecting' code that performers closer to what you want (natural pressures). Using this mechanism nature created consciousness in a few million generations. Someday maybe we could iterate through a few trillion generations on computers.
An analogy to math, this would be like a numeric solution to the consciousness problem as opposed to a closed from exact solution I considered above.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: HAL 9000's death [Re: DieCommie]
#8744044 - 08/08/08 01:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Wouldn't the application of probability, with the additional wrinkle of chaos theory, to this model make the end result of sentient self-awareness highly unlikely?
After all, we have no way to know which natural pressures to apply, nor what combination is required to achieve the desired end result. The same applies to the random mutations.
If there are billions of combinations which could result in sentient self-awareness, then the odds of a "hit" would be less astronomical. If there are only a few, or perhaps only one, then it would be impossible to achieve via this method.
Again, I really enjoy hearing your ideas. It sounds like you've considered this in-depth.
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 Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Daisy
Daaaiiiisy
Giiiiive meeeeeeeeeeeeee yyyooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrr Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiisy dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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Fiddlesticks.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: HAL 9000's death [Re: Veritas]
#8744174 - 08/08/08 01:25 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Edited by DieCommie (11/13/16 10:11 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
In the fictional movie "2001", HAL is a seemingly sentient artificial intelligence (re: a highly advanced computer). HAL appears to have a psychotic break and must be shut down.
Quote:
As the icy Dr. Bowman marches through the ship on his way to disconnect the computer, HAL's bravado quickly washes away, to be replaced by a fearful, near-whining stream of pleas. HAL is afraid of death. This is a good candidate for the most powerful scene in 2001; HAL is trying to scream, but he doesn't know how. He's not programmed to do that.
The human reaction to trauma is said to be typified by four stages: shock, denial, bargaining, and acceptance. It could be argued that HAL's monologue here reflects that pattern, if loosely. Also, of course, as his cerebral functions are being deactivated, HAL undergoes a regression--reliving, as it were, his childhood.2 This is playing on one of the central themes of the movie--what is the nature of humanity? What do you call a computer that follows human psychological patterns? Clearly, you call it HAL, but that isn't the point. The point is, he's acting like a human, so we ascribe human emotions to him, even though he cannot and does not express them in the slightest bit beyond toneless verbiage.
In this powerful scene, some viewers express sympathy, some gleeful revenge, and some find it silly that a machine would beg to live.
Few however, find it silly that a human would fear death (brain disconnect).
If we (humans) are unable to determine yay or nay as to whether or not future machines possess self-awareness (see: Turing Machine), then perhaps there is no magical state - merely an affect from significant processing and data storage.
As machines become more powerful and there is one day a seemingly self-aware machine, it will not be due to any magic dust or injection of an ethereal soul, but a threshold may be passed or some new type of processing will be discovered/implemented.
Again, I see the same for biological entities. There is a reasonably linear progression of awareness from lower to higher animals without the need of injecting mystical components into the equation.
yes
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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I believe this is an important thread.
Film seems to be an effective medium for communicating philosphical concepts.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: HAL 9000's death [Re: DieCommie]
#8744564 - 08/08/08 02:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Computers we have now usually run error free, but collapse completely when an error is encountered (blue screen of death). Being able to operate and go with an error might be needed...
Yes, exactly. In fact, it might be our ability to integrate the consequences of errors which has led to our degree of complexity, which resulted in the emergence of consciousness. Even very simple systems are subject to chaos, but the chaos potential would increase exponentially with each degree of complexity. (A bit like advancing levels in a video game...the obstacles become more difficult, and occur more frequently.)
If the challenges inherent in chaos "weed out" all but the most-conscious complex organisms, it would have the effect of inextricably associating complexity and consciousness. Perhaps not a true "emergent property," then, but rather a set of paired selected traits?
Darwin clarified his "survival of the fittest" concept by explaining that "fittest" did not necessarily mean strongest, fastest, most violent, etc...but rather the most adaptable. Organisms with the ability to utilize the experience of errors in order to better adapt to their environment would be "the fittest."
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daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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Re: HAL 9000's death [Re: DieCommie]
#8744675 - 08/08/08 03:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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So if I indulge the idea that chaos is the spark of life which is responsible for art, intuition and so forth, answer me this:
For us to consider the possibility of artificial intelligence being alive, wouldn't this require a true chaos generator, necessarily expressed in the form of an algorythmn?
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
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Re: HAL 9000's death [Re: Veritas]
#8744720 - 08/08/08 03:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Maybe someone else already brought this up, I've just been skimming as I'm working on another project, but I think this might be something worth considering.
Perhaps it would be better to let "AI" evolve on its own rather than trying to artificially impart human characteristics, emotions, and abstract reasoning to what would potentially be an entire new race of beings, unrelated to us in nearly every way. It seems to me that all of the different quality's that make up human consciousness, have evolved in relation to the various physiological processes involved in sensing and interpreting the world around us. The vast majority, if not all of our "emotional" reactions may be nothing more than a slowly evolving survival system that has been developing over millions of years. A great deal of our mind functions on an unconscious level, and responds to external stimulus based on ingrained autonomic reaction.
Atempting to simulate everything that encompasses the many layers of both mental and physiological primate/human existence may not be realistically possible, or even desirable.
If, and when we do finally see AI it will most likely be something entirely new and alien to us. It probably will not have the same emotions, feeling, or desires. The very nature of its existence, and the way in which it relates to the world around it may be so far removed from anything we can innately understand that it requires an entire new language in order to communicate.
....Anyway, its just a thought, maybe I'm wrong
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