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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Why I will vote for Ralph Nader
    #8603075 - 07/07/08 03:34 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Ralph Nader has been fighting for Americans' rights for decades. The mainstream have tried their hardest to tarnish how the public views him. Mostly, they have succeeded.

In my experience, about 90% of the time his name comes up, it results in the common retorts about him being a "spoiler", or specifically "Gore/Kerry would have won if Nader hadn't stolen all those votes". This kind of attitude is very dangerous. Here's why.

In Nader's own words:
Quote:
I was at my Princeton reunion the other day, and a young alumnus came up to me - he was very kind - and he said "You know, I really like what you're doing - I like what you did - but please don't run."

I said "Do you realize what you are saying?"

And he said "Yes, I said please don't run."

I said "You're telling me not to use my First Amendment rights of speech, assembly, and petition inside the electoral arena. You're telling me to shut up. Are you aware of what you're saying?"

He said "I understand, I understand, I like what you're doing, but please don't run."

So I went through and I said "Well, would you tell those voters instead of trying to determine which one was worse between the Democrats and the Whigs, the two major parties in the 19th century, and instead cut out and voted for the Liberty Party, which was the anti-slavery party - would you say to those candidates, 'Don't run'?"

Complete article here: http://www.votenader.org/blog/2008/06/13/dont-run/

The man is completely qualified for the position as our president. Look up his history of protecting our rights. He has accomplished much.

Also, many people insist on voting for one of the mainstream parties out of fear that the greater of the two evils will come into power. This is incredibly naive as the Democrats and Republicans in reality are on the same team (the team of the corporate oligarchy) and politically they are not very different. People have been duped by our ineffective media to perceive the Dems and Reps as left wing and right wing. Wrong! Perhaps the left and right wings of a small room in a big house. -- Here is how the candidates for the 2008 election measure up on the political compass, based on their policies. http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008

If you are dissatisfied with the direction our nation has been taking over the past decades, voting for either mainstream candidate will bring you more of the same.

I think it's safe to say the great majority of people who vote for mainstream party candidates don't feel that these candidates entirely represent their views, but only "sort of" represent them, or "mostly" represent them. Many feel that there is a different party which more closely represents their views, but they choose to vote strategically in order to avoid the worse mainstream candidate being elected. To do this is to do yourself a disservice. In Nader's words, "you are acting like a politician, not like a voter." You are doing exactly what the powers that be want you to do. If you vote for a candidate who is not really representing your views, then you are not really being represented. Worse, those who do choose to vote for other parties get nothing at all - they are not represented because they cannot get a majority in particular districts.

There is of course a bigger issue, our electoral system as a whole is broken. Our nation was founded by a group of extremely intelligent men. Our constitution is one of the greatest documents ever conceived, but there exists a fatal flaw. So fatal it has allowed our power to be completely subverted by corporate interests. Both mainstream parties are whores. They are Power-Brokers. We give them the power to make decisions, and this power is for sale to the highest bidder. The only way to resolve this issue is to open up the electoral process and enact some form of proportional representation. The mainstream parties don't even want to open up the presidential debates, forget PR.

As we all know, recent polls have shown the majority of Americans don't like the direction the country has been taking. The majority of Americans are going to continue voting for the same old boys' clubs. Do what you always did and you'll get what you always got. It will be more of the same.

I will be casting my vote for Ralph Nader and will continue to support him however I can, because I know nothing will change until we have REAL election reform, and we will NOT get it from Dems or Reps. Period.

Don't get me wrong, I am under no illusion that Nader will actually win this election. But voting for either of the mainstream parties to me is a wasted vote because the reason they keep being crap and ignoring the important issues is because they can; they know people will still keep voting for them and they will keep getting elected. Not voting at all is just as pointless because it doesn't put any pressure to show them people are fed up and voting for OTHER ideas. Not voting lets them know people are complacent with the way things are now.

Some will say they agree but this election is so important they can't let it go to McCain. I say Obama and McCain are on the same team, and you will get more of the same from both of them, perhaps in different flavors. But any flavor of shit is still shit.

We have to start somewhere. I choose NOW.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


Edited by Albino_Jesus (07/07/08 03:50 AM)

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #8603198 - 07/07/08 05:35 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I've got great respect for Nader.  I disagree with his politics, but he seems consistant and not full of shit- i.e. his reasons are his own.


I also have a special place in my heart for someone that pisses of the democrats and republicans so much and does it in a way fully protected by every fundamental value of our system of government.

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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: johnm214]
    #8604344 - 07/07/08 02:19 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (03/10/21 05:44 PM)

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OfflineWornTraveler
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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8604480 - 07/07/08 03:06 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

You go ahead and vote for Nader. It's a great victory for Democracy, being able to vote for whoever you want no matter how strange his thinking, but in all honesty, it's a waste of a vote, because he'll never win. If you go in for the civic duty theory of voting, it's IMO one's civic duty to vote for the least evil candidate that can actually win . otherwise, sure, you might express your irritation with the two-party system by voting for Nader, but in the end, your wasted vote (and everyone else voting for him) could mean the difference in the real election. Maybe one day third/independent parties will be taken seriously, but that day is certainly not now.

All that said, I'm a republican, and Nader tends to draw off Democrat support, so you go right ahead and vote for him, hehe. :cool:


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: WornTraveler]
    #8604882 - 07/07/08 04:54 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

When you don't see either of the mainstream parties as "less evil" than the other, it's kind of pointless to vote for either.

My vote would only be wasted if I voted for a candidate only because I thought they would win. Like I said above, the only reason the mainstream stays so crap is because we keep voting the assholes in.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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OfflineWornTraveler
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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #8605299 - 07/07/08 06:34 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

TBH, I don't think the country is ready for anything radical. That's why we keep voting them in.

Besides, TBH, the President is NOT the one who changes things. He's got a lot of power in that he proposes the budget, which in a way can help set the agenda, and he can veto things. But he doesn't make actual legislation, and that's where things get done. Nader can say he'll change America till he's blue in the face, and he can veto as much as he wants, but in the end Congress would more or less just ignore him, get enough votes to go around the veto and carry on more or less like the President did not even exist.


--------------------
Captain Cannabis, Guardian of Ganja, Sultan of Shrooms, Giver of Green, Tabbed Tripper, and all around Good Guy.

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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: WornTraveler]
    #8605462 - 07/07/08 07:08 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (03/10/21 05:44 PM)

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OfflineWornTraveler
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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8605507 - 07/07/08 07:19 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

What do you think you're achieving by voting for Nader? I wouldn't stop you, but if you have the power to vote, and you vote for a candidate you know is going to lose, then the vote has essentially been wasted. Multiply that by thousands, millions of voters, and you have a situation where they could have voted for a major candidate that could have won with their help, but instead the other one did. That happened in one of the recent elections, where Nader drew off Democratic support in the popular vote of a state which ended up swinging it in Republican favor. I daresay that the Democrats are closer to Nader's ideals than are the Republicans.

I've only been able to vote once so far, in a local election, but I plan on voting the rest of my life. I figure it's the least I can do for the thousands of people who have died to make sure I can vote, and I certainly wouldn't want to waste it. There's idealism, but there's also the pragmatic side to be considered.


--------------------
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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: WornTraveler]
    #8605637 - 07/07/08 07:49 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (03/10/21 05:45 PM)

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: WornTraveler]
    #8605703 - 07/07/08 08:11 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

WornTraveler said:
You go ahead and vote for Nader. It's a great victory for Democracy, being able to vote for whoever you want no matter how strange his thinking, but in all honesty, it's a waste of a vote, because he'll never win. If you go in for the civic duty theory of voting, it's IMO one's civic duty to vote for the least evil candidate that can actually win . otherwise, sure, you might express your irritation with the two-party system by voting for Nader, but in the end, your wasted vote (and everyone else voting for him) could mean the difference in the real election. Maybe one day third/independent parties will be taken seriously, but that day is certainly not now.

All that said, I'm a republican, and Nader tends to draw off Democrat support, so you go right ahead and vote for him, hehe. :cool:




This is a stupid argument.  How is voting for a candidate that "has a chance" any more a waste of a vote than a candidate that doesn't?  How is casting a vote for a candidate who wins and wins by more than your vote not a waste of a vote? 

Support your premise, it seems silly, and you've just hopped on the semantic bandwagon without explaining yourself.

Must you win elections to influence politics?  I'm interested in your support, cuz every other person who jumps in this forum wiht that rhetoric cannot explain what he means without contradiction and without leaving his premise unsupported.  Did you just read that out of USA Today or something?  Where does it come from that a candidate must be viable to not have your vote wasted? 
Answer my questions please, you'll be the first.

And you identify the problem with out current voting scheme, the vote for a candidate may take suport from another candidate whom you suppor tmore than the alternative viable candidate- stupid.

We need Nadher's proposed version of runoff voting.  I think its a great idea.

The two party system entrenches ideas neither party cares to challenge, despite public opposition to them, and is evidence enough that we should investigate alternatives.

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

I figure it's the least I can do for the thousands of people who have died to make sure I can vote...




Some did. Most, however, did not. They died not defending their homeland or the freedoms guaranteed to all U.S. citizens in the Bill of Rights (which don't exist today), but rather they died as cannon fodder promoting the economic interests of a small minority who wield great influence within government, which has nothing to do with anything noble or just.





How don't the bill of rights exist?  Explain please with specific details- concise though I can get your drift.

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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: WornTraveler]
    #8605751 - 07/07/08 08:21 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

WornTraveler said:
I wouldn't stop you, but if you have the power to vote, and you vote for a candidate you know is going to lose, then the vote has essentially been wasted. Multiply that by thousands, millions of voters, and you have a situation where they could have voted for a major candidate that could have won with their help, but instead the other one did.




You're entirely missing the point that I see no real difference between douchebag #1 and douchebag #2


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: johnm214]
    #8605758 - 07/07/08 08:24 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

Must you win elections to influence politics? 




Nope. :smile:

The more people vote for third parties the more the mainstream parties will realize that they are losing votes because of the real issues they are not addressing.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #8605800 - 07/07/08 08:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Does your single vote decide an election?  What are the chances that YOUR vote decides, maybe like 1,000,000,000 to 1.

Voting only matters to the system to give it the appearance of legitimacy.  A more powerful message is not to vote at all, to send the message of non-consent to the concept of "social contract" and all other collectivist tripe that is legitimatized by the voting process.

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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: fivepointer]
    #8605823 - 07/07/08 08:40 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said: A more powerful message is not to vote at all, to send the message of non-consent to the concept of "social contract" and all other collectivist tripe that is legitimatized by the voting process.




I never said I don't consent to the idea of a social contract. And what do you mean by "collectivist tripe"?

Not voting gives the powers that be the impression that we are complacent with the way things are. This gives them the freedom to keep being assholes.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: fivepointer]
    #8605835 - 07/07/08 08:43 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

allready said that, nya nya na boo boo

I don't get his point though.  The "throw away your vote" justification has never been explained to me, and it sounds like another piece of garbage heuristic thinking folks bring up in discussions.

Nobody thinks of why its true, but, in my experience, shallow folks who don't know anything about the electoral system seem to have a lot of self-proclaimed principles they rely on in conversation/discussion.  When they bring them up and I ask "why" they look like a deer in the headlights- similar to how some of my friends look when I ask them why the government has the right or should take money from people with more money than us.


Just another example of people with unspoken and unsupported premises that throw them around with other folks who feel they agree with them but can't really say why.  Then when someone simply asks them to justify the premises they have a coniption and decide your being difficult and  you just "agree to disagree."  They just can't defend their position... it just sounds nice



Now that above is a bunch of crap as far as this conversation, just venting in my personal experience.  I don't mean to imply that this is the way the poster came to his "vote nader is a worthless vote" idea, but the guys I've met who spout this can never support it... just venting man.


So what's the logic?  Could you answer my questions in my previous thread? :smile:

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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: johnm214]
    #8606297 - 07/07/08 10:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (03/10/21 05:46 PM)

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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #8606983 - 07/08/08 03:28 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I've always wondered about the political situation in the 'land of the free'. How ironic, the country that talks the most about spreading democracy throughout the world having only 2 parties of significance.

Where I live there are new parties being formed all the time by people who are not satisfied with the status quo. Some of them remain small but even then they are able to get attention from the media. For example, there's a party that stands for animal rights. They've been laughed at of course but they've been able to get most of the other parties to pay more attention to animal rights and this has led to new legislation.

Some other parties have grown much bigger and as a result the traditional parties have lost some of their influence. Sometimes a new party is able to form a government with one or two more traditional parties.

Why doesn't that happen in the US?


--------------------
"The finest emotion of which we are capable is the mystic emotion. Herein lies the germ of all art and all true science. Anyone to whom this feeling is alien, who is no longer capable of wonderment and lives in a state of fear is a dead man. To know that what is impenatrable for us really exists and manifests itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, whose gross forms alone are intelligible to our poor faculties - this knowledge, this feeling ... that is the core of the true religious sent iment. In this sense, and in this sense alone, I rank myself amoung profoundly religious men."
-Albert Einstein

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OfflineLaineRB
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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: Floop]
    #8614821 - 07/09/08 08:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The U.S 9th Circuit Court of Appeals sided with Ralph Nader in a dispute about Arizona's early ballot access deadline. The 9th Circuit rejected the arguement by Arizona Secretary of State that the early deadline was needed to print ballots for the November election and in addition they sided with Nader that anyone should be allowed to circle petitions rather than the current law which states that only Arizona residents can.

This is an amazing victory for independents every where and could lead to a much larger nation wide victory because the Arizona Secretary of State is hoping to appeal this to the U.S Supreme Court. If this makes it to the Supreme Court and they rule in Nader's favor then this could have huge ramifications as it would set the stage to strike down bias and restrictive ballot access regulations in every state.


I tip my hat to Mr. Nader and my respect has grown ten fold even from where it was. This man has set the stage to make ballot access easier for those of us outside the two party system and if we can win in the Supreme Court then it will open our democracy to more choices in the future. Shame on those who claim Mr. Nader is in the race only to feed his ego for if he wins here then ballot access will be far easier for all independents and third parties for generations to come and thus our democracy will be more genuine.

http://www.yumasun.com/news/court_42.../run_door.html

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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Why I will vote for Ralph Nader [Re: LaineRB]
    #8789604 - 08/18/08 04:44 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I have been working a lot in the past weeks for the Nader campaign, volunteering. It it really very uplifting to become active in such a great cause - it is the cure for the cynicism and apathy that 50% of the US' eligible voters have succumbed to. If that 50% would just do something, we could make so many great changes. That 50% don't even bother to get off their ass and vote. I was one of them last election.

Once you get started being active, getting out and talking to people, you just get more and more momentum. I was at a protest of more than 1000 people on saturday, at that "compassion forum" in SoCal. I was there. Talking with people, debating things, and afterwards I feel even more motivated to continue.


The only cure for apathy is action.

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