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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!!
    #8152768 - 03/16/08 10:04 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

This is a most exciting time for me to; see this:thumbup:




I believe that this will demonstrate to our country, our people, and our heritage, if the Constitution does still have a shread of relevance and respect in this current era.



For me, there is only one possible conclusion that the justices can come too.....side with the rights of the individual. Being that is the 2nd Amendment, in the BILL OF RIGHTS, there can be no other legitimate conclusion. No, the right to bear arms does not only apply to militias, and no, it does not protect the average citizen just from the federal government, while the States can run rampant on this issue. I would like to see the cities like New York and Chicago, reread the 10th Amendment.It a fundamental right of any law abiding citizen, to be able to watch over one's property and safety.


People kill and murder people; guns do not.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/15/AR2008031502358_pf.html


D.C.'s Gun Ban Gets Day in Court
Justices' Decision May Set Precedent In Interpreting the 2nd Amendment

By Robert Barnes
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, March 16, 2008; A01



Despite mountains of scholarly research, enough books to fill a library shelf and decades of political battles about gun control, the Supreme Court will have an opportunity this week that is almost unique for a modern court when it examines whether the District's handgun ban violates the Second Amendment.

The nine justices, none of whom has ever ruled directly on the amendment's meaning, will consider a part of the Bill of Rights that has existed without a definitive interpretation for more than 200 years.

"This may be one of the only cases in our lifetime when the Supreme Court is going to be interpreting the meaning of an important provision of the Constitution unencumbered by precedent,'' said Randy E. Barnett, a constitutional scholar at the Georgetown University Law Center. "And that's why there's so much discussion on the original meaning of the Second Amendment.''

The outcome could roil the 2008 political campaigns, send a national message about what kinds of gun control are constitutional and finally settle the question of whether the 27-word amendment, with its odd structure and antiquated punctuation, provides an individual right to gun ownership or simply pertains to militia service.

"The case has been structured so that they have to confront the threshold question," said Robert A. Levy, the wealthy libertarian lawyer who has spent five years and his own money to bring District of Columbia v. Heller to the Supreme Court. "I think they have to come to grips with that."

The stakes are obviously high for the District, which passed the nation's strictest gun-control law in 1976, just after residents were granted the authority to govern themselves. It virtually bans the private possession of handguns, and requires that rifles and shotguns in the home be kept unloaded and disassembled or outfitted with a trigger lock.

The law's challengers -- security guard Dick Anthony Heller is the named party in the suit -- say the measure has been an abysmal failure at cutting crime or stanching the city's homicide rate, and a success only in depriving the law-abiding of a ready weapon for protection. The District contends that banning handguns is a logical decision in an urban setting, where more guns would result in more killings.

The city's lawyers argue that the Second Amendment does not provide an individual right and that, even if it does, the amendment is not implicated by legislation that concerns only the District of Columbia.

The case could be a revealing test of the court headed by Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. Roberts came to the bench saying justices should decide cases as narrowly as possible, but last year he was part of a slim majority that made bold breaks with the court's jurisprudence in cases both recent and old, on issues such as school integration and abortion.

Clues to the justices' interpretations of the Second Amendment are scant and cryptic, and Roberts said during his 2005 confirmation hearings that the last time the court considered the issue -- in 1939 -- it "sidestepped" the fundamental questions.

That is part of the reason that the outcome -- not expected until near the end of the court's term in late June -- will be so intriguing, said Suzanna Sherry, a law professor at Vanderbilt University.

"It is very rare that the justices write on a clean slate," she said. "In some ways, it gives them great freedom."

Levy and lawyers Alan Gura and Clark Neily were able to persuade the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit last year to do what no other federal appeals court had ever done: strike down a local gun-control ordinance on Second Amendment grounds.

The amendment says that "a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed,'' and all but one of the circuits that had considered the issue previously had interpreted it as providing a gun-ownership right related only to military service.

But Senior Judge Laurence H. Silberman, a conservative icon, wrote for a 2 to 1 panel that the amendment provides an individual right just as other provisions of the Bill of Rights do. And because handguns fall under the definition of "arms," he wrote, the District may not ban them.

The Supreme Court's endorsement of an individual right would be a monumental change in federal jurisprudence, but perhaps not surprising. Even a small but growing group of liberal constitutional scholars -- "against my political instincts," in the words of Harvard law professor Laurence H. Tribe -- have endorsed the individual-right view.

But even fundamental rights are subject to government restrictions, and whether the justices are ready to decide on the reasonableness of the District's ban could be the crucial question of the case.

The city received an unlikely lifeline from the Bush administration, which told the court that the amendment provides an individual right but that the appeals court erred in deciding that the District's ban was automatically unconstitutional.

"If adopted by this court," Solicitor General Paul D. Clement wrote in the government's brief, "such an analysis could cast doubt on the constitutionality of existing federal legislation prohibiting the possession of certain firearms, including machineguns."

Clement said that the District's law may well be unconstitutional, but that the case should be returned to lower courts for "application of a proper standard of review" and to permit "Second Amendment doctrine to develop in an incremental and prudent fashion."

Gun rights supporters were furious about the government's position, and Vice President Cheney went so far as to join a friend-of-the-court brief that specifically rejects the administration's view. Levy said returning the case to lower courts would be a "death knell," and his team has urged the court to apply "strict scrutiny" to any government action that would restrict gun ownership.

Said Gura: "What we want to do is take prohibition off the table."

The case is complicated by the District's secondary argument that the Second Amendment is not implicated by legislation that applies only to the District of Columbia.

The challengers have received a broad array of political support, signs of the strength of the gun rights movement: More than 31 states and a majority of the House and Senate have signed friend-of-the-court briefs.

Among the presidential candidates, Republican Sen. John McCain signed on, while Democratic Sens. Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton did not. Both Democrats have looked for a middle ground, saying they believe the Second Amendment preserves an individual right, but one that is subject to government restrictions.

That position would seem popular. A Washington Post poll shows that 72 percent of the public believes the Constitution provides an individual right, but respondents were evenly split on whether it is more important to protect the rights of Americans to own guns or to control gun ownership.

Nearly 60 percent said they would support the kind of law in question.

But nationally, it is hard to find many laws as restrictive as the one in the District, partly because of the gun rights lobby's vigilance. More than 40 state constitutions have gun ownership guarantees. Maryland's is one of the few that does not.

As a result, it is difficult to know what gun-control legislation across the country would be at risk even if the Supreme Court upheld the D.C. Circuit's decision.

Levy said the next targets will be handgun laws in Chicago and New York City, although the court has never held that the Second Amendment is applicable to states. And one legal theory is that the provision is a restriction only against the federal government.

Both sides agree that the court's decision could send a powerful message beyond the District.

Tribe, whose support of the individual right is often cited by gun rights supporters, wrote an article in the Wall Street Journal recently that said the District's law could still be upheld and urged the court to decide the case narrowly.

But he acknowledged in an interview that the justices might "jump at the opportunity" to write broadly when they finally have a chance to put their mark "on a part of the Constitution that isn't already paved over with layer upon layer of judicial precedent."





--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (03/16/08 10:13 AM)

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #8152813 - 03/16/08 10:31 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

While hopefully the courts get this right, it is a shame it had to get to this point.

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #8152835 - 03/16/08 10:38 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

One easy compromise would be to keep the ban on handguns and short barrel weapons, allow the law abiding to keep their long barreled weapons intact. It will still cause whatever decrease in murder rate that being without handguns will cause, but it will leave the law abiding free to defend themselves in their homes (and maybe vehicles?).

To be honest though, I think the second amendment is a horrible failure. The intention was to keep a populace which was able to overthrow a tyrannous government if the need arose.

Guess what? The need has arisen- guess what? Nothing happens.

It's not guns alone which allow a populace to overthrow a government, it's intelligence and willpower. These qualities have been engineered out of the American populace for the last half century. What's more, the country has been put on lockdown, so this intelligence and willpower may not resurface. Any hint of even so much as a rebuttal against today's tyrannous government would be "terrorism".

Today, the only functions guns serve are the quick ends- throw you out of your SUV and cap you, or cap the guy trying to throw you out of your SUV. (Or get angry, and cap the guy that cut you off.)

Too bad everyone has a gun already, because now a transition to a gun-free America would give the criminals the upper hand!


--------------------
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Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8152853 - 03/16/08 10:48 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

I disagree with almost everything you said.

Quote:


One easy compromise would be to keep the ban on handguns and short barrel weapons, allow the law abiding to keep their long barreled weapons intact. It will still cause whatever decrease in murder rate that being without handguns will cause, but it will leave the law abiding free to defend themselves in their homes (and maybe vehicles?).




Taking guns away from people has never lowered a crime rate. Anywhere. DC has one of the highest murder rates in the country, but no handguns. Your point is moot here. Lets give the people guns and I bet the murder rate goes down.

Quote:


To be honest though, I think the second amendment is a horrible failure. The intention was to keep a populace which was able to overthrow a tyrannous government if the need arose.

Guess what? The need has arisen- guess what? Nothing happens.





In your mind, maybe. The vast majority of the populace who aren't angst-ridden teenagers realize that while things may not be utopian, they are certainly better than 95% of the alternatives. While you may think things are just horrible because you can't smoke pot, or because Ron Paul is out of the race, the fact remains that this country has provided the highest standard of living to the largest number of people of any government in any country in any time in history.

This is literally as good as it gets.

Quote:


It's not guns alone which allow a populace to overthrow a government, it's intelligence and willpower. These qualities have been engineered out of the American populace for the last half century. What's more, the country has been put on lockdown, so this intelligence and willpower may not resurface.





Speak for yourself. The only thing sapping the willpower of the people is a government coddling them, not one smacking them down. I know you think the government is horrible and repressive, but try it someplace else.

Again, better than 95% of the alternatives.

Quote:


Today, the only functions guns serve are the quick ends- throw you out of your SUV and cap you, or cap the guy trying to throw you out of your SUV. (Or get angry, and cap the guy that cut you off.)





Discounting the thousands of legitimate uses of a gun that happen every day...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8152889 - 03/16/08 10:56 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

You've gotta be my favorite liberal ever.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #8152911 - 03/16/08 11:04 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

I don't toe the party line.

Like I've said before, my views move more to the right all the time.

If the Republicans ever decide to split their party and drop all their nasty "Social Conservative" or "Christian Right" bullshit, I'd probably give their party a serious look.

I can get down w/ reforming welfare, or reforming taxes, and capitalism, and guns, and a strong military.

But the Gay-Hating and Anti-Abortion and "Return to the Dark Ages Science Policy" things are deal-breakers. Not to mention that whole "invading innocent countries on sketchy evidence" thing...

But yeah, I love America.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8153003 - 03/16/08 11:33 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I disagree with almost everything you said.





It's hard to take you seriously when your views are so obviously based on your personal desires rather than any want for public safety, but I will try and reason with you...

Quote:


Taking guns away from people has never lowered a crime rate. Anywhere. DC has one of the highest murder rates in the country, but no handguns. Your point is moot here. Lets give the people guns and I bet the murder rate goes down.





The current US murder rate is 2.5 times that of Canada per capita.

Approximately 70% of the total murders in the US are committed with firearms, vs. about 30% in Canada.

Give people guns to bring the murder rate down? So will they just shoot each other's intention to kill?

Keep in mind I did make the point that it is too late to remove guns at this point, they are already everywhere.


Quote:


In your mind, maybe. The vast majority of the populace who aren't angst-ridden teenagers realize that while things may not be utopian, they are certainly better than 95% of the alternatives. While you may think things are just horrible because you can't smoke pot, or because Ron Paul is out of the race, the fact remains that this country has provided the highest standard of living to the largest number of people of any government in any country in any time in history.

This is literally as good as it gets.





That, I have to say, just strikes me as sick.

Your country rounds up people of my culture- people who use drugs- and puts them in prisons, even if we have never harmed another in any way. There is no democratic means provided to change this whatsoever. They exercise their utmost foreign pressure to push all other countries into obedience of this policy, trampling culture and the human right to possess one's own body.

The U.S. is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not have a universal health care system. Currently 16% of people in the US would be left to die rather than waste a doctor's valuable time.

This number will obviously increase- 4/5 Americans are less wealthy than their parents.


Quote:


Speak for yourself. The only thing sapping the willpower of the people is a government coddling them, not one smacking them down. I know you think the government is horrible and repressive, but try it someplace else.

Again, better than 95% of the alternatives.





No, worse than any alternative. The government has maliciously imposed a feedback system which ensures the bare minimum will be provided to the populace to see that satisfaction is reached- continuously declining standards at an optimized rate. There is no democracy, only a piece of paper every 4 years with 2 dis-likable names. There are no human rights, only the need to print a name tag reading the word "terrorist" before you are taken to Guantanamo Bay for some good ol' torture without trial.

Quote:


Discounting the thousands of legitimate uses of a gun that happen every day...




In a city?

Generally you're either shooting a target or you're shooting a person. There are surprisingly few game fowl or deer.


--------------------
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The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153034 - 03/16/08 11:44 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:


Taking guns away from people has never lowered a crime rate. Anywhere. DC has one of the highest murder rates in the country, but no handguns. Your point is moot here. Lets give the people guns and I bet the murder rate goes down.





The current US murder rate is 2.5 times that of Canada per capita.

Approximately 70% of the total murders in the US are committed with firearms, vs. about 30% in Canada.

Give people guns to bring the murder rate down? So will they just shoot each other's intention to kill?






crime in Kennsaw hasnt changed and it's mandatory for every head
of household to own a firearm, given that the city has 5 times
the population it did when the law was passed suggests that guns
do indeed prevent crime

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55288
http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Kennesaw&state=GA
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818862/posts



guns arent the problem, canadians are

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8153059 - 03/16/08 11:55 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

I like how your response is a "statistic" with a sample size of one... and you fail to produce any logic. Even if your "statistic" meant anything, a correlation is not a logical connection.

That's the same way you guys keep the drug war such a success isn't it?

God Bless America.



I guess I have nothing more to say to people like you, pro-gun argumentatives are among the most hard-headed people I have ever spoken to. It's a never ending argument with words, and when the argument does end with someone getting shot, guess who it is?

That's the closest you could ever come to proving you should have the right to have a gun. The dead body who doesn't argue with you any longer.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #8153095 - 03/16/08 12:08 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

---

Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 03:44 PM)

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8153108 - 03/16/08 12:11 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

It a fundamental right of any law abiding citizen, to be able to watch over one's property and safety.




I like the 'law-abiding' part of that. It's a nice disclaimer to say, "You can defend your property so long as you don't possess what we don't want you to have, & you can defend it from other ordinary citizens who threaten what we say you can have, but we will give you life in prison or the death penalty, or more likely kill you on the spot, if you defend your property from us taking it." What a wonderful concept this 'freedom' is.




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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153135 - 03/16/08 12:20 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

That's the closest you could ever come to proving you should have the right to have a gun.




The only thing necessary to prove that I have the right to own a gun is the fact that I have an urge to acquire one and that I do no damage to others in any way other than self-defense.

The only place my rights end is at the point where I begin to intrude on others'.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #8153186 - 03/16/08 12:35 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

And misfires?
Is your gained ability to easily kill worth the risk of the lives of others who you don't even want to kill?

"Mr. Vice President! You shot him in the face!"

"Oh, sorry"

I don't think there is a fundamental right to have a device useful only for killing. That is a side topic however, not the point that I came to this thread to bring.








I should repeat one more time, you are already fucked for having a gun-free country. Everyone has guns. Now that everyone has guns and no synchronized dismantling process is possible, people should have the right to keep guns. The mistake has already been made, all we can do is deal with the consequences.

But if you have nothing to hide with the way you use your gun, you shouldn't need to hide your gun either. A criminal will be just as hesitant to hold up a store if he thinks he'll be shot in the face with a shotgun as he would be if he thought he'd be shot in the face with a handgun.

The only difference is you can't easily conceal your rifle walking into the store.


--------------------
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The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153223 - 03/16/08 12:43 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

There is no mistake in having a gun free country. Do you actually think having laws that stop people from buying guns from a gun dealer will actually stop someone from acquiring a gun if they really want one? I've seen no research that says that this is true.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #8153246 - 03/16/08 12:54 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
There is no mistake in having a gun free country. Do you actually think having laws that stop people from buying guns from a gun dealer will actually stop someone from acquiring a gun if they really want one? I've seen no research that says that this is true.




No, I don't think it would stop them completely.
I could go buy a glock for $90 right now if I wanted.

But being in Canada, it sure would be a quick and easy case if the cops found it on me, now wouldn't it?

I doubt that I need to repeat the statistic about the Canadian murder rate/gun murder rate. It's very, very obvious that if you make it easier to get a device that makes it easier to kill- you make it easier to kill. I don't know what sort of research you would want to see.
IF (A = B) & (B = C) THEN (A = C)




I'm not pretending there are magical gun-regulation solutions that will cure all murder. But I am definitely suggesting you need to continue evaluating your fundamentals regarding guns.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153252 - 03/16/08 12:57 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

As do you.

Your stance on gun ownership is as much a reflection of Canadian society as mine is of US society.

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153258 - 03/16/08 12:58 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Oh, if you were saying: "there is no research that says people who want guns won't be able to get guns if there is gun regulation in effect"

I agree.

Regulating guns will not prevent people from getting them... look at drugs... black markets will always cater after a certain threshold demand exists.

But what regulating guns will do is prevent people who are just ignorant hooligans from getting guns simply because it's easy and they think it's cool. And they will prevent that same sort of ignorant people from having their sloppy egos lose their temper and doing something they regret.


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The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #8153365 - 03/16/08 01:30 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
As do you.

Your stance on gun ownership is as much a reflection of Canadian society as mine is of US society.




But in my country, we are seeing success due to our gun policies. Whereas in your country, despite economic prosperity, you are seeing the highest murder rates in the entire world.

Our success in keeping our murder rate down is wavering now however. Why? Partially because of gun availability leaking over the border.

I don't disagree that if killing is your first priority, guns are a great asset. But I am more concerned with preventing murder.

My 'fundamentals' are based on our past success, and trying to regain that success. I say 'fundamentals' because I have no fundamentals, any view or belief I hold will always be subject to applicable logical progress.

When I joined this forum I would have said illegalization of all firearms was wise for the US, I no longer believe that, I now have a view that I feel takes into consideration the current situation more appropriately.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153386 - 03/16/08 01:35 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Whereas in your country, despite economic prosperity, you are seeing the highest murder rates in the entire world.


:lol: Highest murder rates in the world?  Please...  He doesnt live in columbia, south africa, or russia.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153411 - 03/16/08 01:45 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

You really should read more before spewing bullshit.

There are more than 35 countries with a higher murder rate than the US.

Just because you've been brought up to believe the drivel you spew doesn't mean the rest of us are quite as foolish.


Quote:

"Open your mind and in creeps wisdom."




Practice what you preach.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (03/16/08 01:47 PM)

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