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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains??
#8057340 - 02/22/08 04:54 PM (16 years, 29 days ago) |
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Can i make a hybrid by mixing the spores of two different strains in water?
Edited by HerbBaker (02/22/08 05:44 PM)
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im_on_a_boat
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Re: Breeding Spores Question [Re: HerbBaker]
#8057389 - 02/22/08 05:04 PM (16 years, 29 days ago) |
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
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Re: Breeding Spores Question [Re: im_on_a_boat]
#8057483 - 02/22/08 05:24 PM (16 years, 29 days ago) |
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None of those threads answers my question.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains?? [Re: HerbBaker]
#8058527 - 02/22/08 09:42 PM (16 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
warriorsoul said: Can i make a hybrid by mixing the spores of two different strains in water?
No. Different strains of the same species will often readily join, but such isn't a hybrid. Now, if you crossed two species, you'd have a hybrid. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
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Re: Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains?? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#8059379 - 02/23/08 06:00 AM (16 years, 28 days ago) |
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I wasnt talking about mixing species but strains rather. Wouldnt it still be called a hybrid like pe6 or falbino or is there another word im looking for?
So if i mixed two spore prints from the same species together in water.Would some of the offspring be a cross of the two strains? I dont see why the monokaryotic hyphae of two different strains wouldnt fuse. Wouldnt it be the first compatible hyphae that the monokaryon comes in contact with? Doesnt the system favour outbreeding?
Edited by HerbBaker (02/23/08 07:52 AM)
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caricapapaya
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Re: Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains?? [Re: HerbBaker]
#8059800 - 02/23/08 10:34 AM (16 years, 28 days ago) |
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With plants a hybrid is the offspring of 2 different strains.
usually it is referring to an F1 hybrid, which is the first generation of a cross between 2 pure breeding strains of the same species.
If you were to cross 2 species, you would have an interspecific hybrid, or 2 genera would be an intergeneric hybrid. Interspecific and intergeneric hybrids can be difficult to obtain, but not always.
Is the terminology the same for mushrooms?
That said, I think you would get some crossing, but identifying the crosses might be the tricky part depending on how different the parents are.
you should read workman's post about the 'White Penis' cross.
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
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Re: Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains?? [Re: caricapapaya]
#8059822 - 02/23/08 10:42 AM (16 years, 28 days ago) |
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Thanks. Ive already read it. I want to know if there is an easier way to make crosses when breeding for a certain phenotype. Mixing the spores in water would be alot easier than isolating monokaryotic hyphae.
Edited by HerbBaker (02/23/08 01:05 PM)
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Smushroom
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Re: Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains?? [Re: HerbBaker]
#8060452 - 02/23/08 01:27 PM (16 years, 28 days ago) |
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You need to do a lot more reading if you want to create "hybrids". Mushroom genetics don't work in the same way as normal genetics.
The simple answer to your question like RR said, is no.
The long answer is way more complex than anyone here really wants to go into with you and it would be better if you just read until you figured it out yourself, but the simplified version is this:
Then you start from spores you will have millions of them germinate and grow. If you put spores from 2 strains together and allowed them to germinate you would have some that are Strain A, some that are Strain B, and some that are Strain AB. However you have to understand that the genetics of the Strain A mycelium will vary with every single germination. So if you inoculated a single jar with your "crossed" spores you would get a bunch of different colonies of mycelium growing in the same medium. Some would over power the others, some would grow alongside the others, and others would eventually be overpowered.
If you let that grow out and fruit you would have fruits with various genetics and wouldn't know which is which.
Now lets say you actually found a mushroom with genetics from both Strain A and Strain B. If you took a spore print from that and germinated those spores you would have the same genetics as last time, some A, some B, and some AB. So the cycle continues.
Eventually you would probably lose all AB mushrooms since they would not be as stable as the others.
If you truly want to create a "hybrid" strain you will have to do a lot of agar work and go through several generations to stabilize the genetics of it. You are looking at atleast 6 months worth of culture work to even get a strain that produces fruits 50% of the hybrid strain. You would need over a year of work to get something to yield 80% or more of a strain.
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
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Re: Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains?? [Re: Smushroom]
#8061564 - 02/23/08 05:24 PM (16 years, 28 days ago) |
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System prevents selfing, promotes outcrossing. As long as the Afactors and B factors are different they mate. Differences are based on alleles present at each of the A factor loci, and each of the B factor loci. A(allele set 1)1 A(allele set2)2 B(alllele set1)1 B(allele set2)2
A1B1 mates with A2B2 succesfully. Dikaryon. A1B1 mating with A2B1 might form clamps but not true clamps, no success. A2B1 mates with A2B2 no clamps, no success. Mating between a single strain 1/4 compatability. Mating between two different strains, that share NO common parents, 100% compatable. Mating between two strains that share a like A or B factor will result in 3/4 compatability. If there is no common parent there should be over a 98% of mating. This doesn't apply to mixing Mycelium of different strains, though, of course. Only to different spores mating.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains?? [Re: HerbBaker]
#8062153 - 02/23/08 07:52 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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What constitutes a 'strain'? Certainly not the name some idiot put on the print. If someone picks a wild mushroom in one part of florida and gives it the name 'x' and someone else picks a mushroom in the next pasture and names it 'y' are they really two strains?
The 'problem' with mixing the spores in water is if they cross or not cross, you won't be able to tell because in most cases there isn't a hill of beans difference between them and you'd have no basis to compare to even know if they crossed or not.
Monokaryons can cross with compatible monokaryons.
Dikaryons can cross with compatible dikaryons or monokaryons.
The above is how 'strains' avoid degeneration in nature. Spores from hundreds or even thousands of miles away can germinate and 'cross' with the local mycelium. Is such hybrids? No.
If a man from africa and a woman from texas have a baby, is it a hybrid? Of course not. If a monkey from africa and a woman from texas crossed, it would be a hybrid. Cross a cubensis with an oyster or shiitake and you have a hybrid. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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MycoAu
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Re: Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains?? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#8062222 - 02/23/08 08:28 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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RR, so do you have any examples of fungal hybrids in the gourmet or medicinal mushrooms catagory (even some "commonly known" articles) in the past few years? I am interested in this type of experimentation if it is possible for the home grower to accomplish. How common is it for hybridization in Gourmet/medicinal mushies? In the wild? In the lab setting? (successes, that is)
Just curious if you could point me towards some "dumbed" down basic reading to get into this topic.
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im_on_a_boat
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Re: Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains?? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#8062679 - 02/23/08 11:13 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: If a man from africa and a woman from texas have a baby, is it a hybrid? Of course not. If a monkey from africa and a woman from texas crossed, it would be a hybrid. Cross a cubensis with an oyster or shiitake and you have a hybrid. RR
what you tryin to say RR?
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
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Re: Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains?? [Re: im_on_a_boat]
#8063426 - 02/24/08 06:44 AM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Im talking about breeding for unique genetic identifiers. like breeding Albino with PE. Wouldnt that be an intraspecies hybrid?
Doesnt the system favour outcrossing?
-------------------- Some things can grow without the light.--RJD
Edited by HerbBaker (02/24/08 10:25 AM)
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ShivaMeme
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Re: Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains?? [Re: HerbBaker] 1
#8064844 - 02/24/08 03:00 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Within species hybridization is well known in animal husbandry. Hybrid vigor is also well known. And yes when "strains" of humans mate, the resulting offspring are often or even usually faster stronger and smarter.
One study conducted with women rating the "attractiveness" of shirts they smelled revealed through blood testing that women find the most dissimilar immune systems in men to be the most attractive. IE promoting genetic diversity is a driving factor of evolution and many times combines the best of both worlds whereas stagnating genetics and inbreeding cause recessive traits to become dominant.
<soapbox>
If you believe all humans are born exactly the same then you must agree to allow a downs or other genetically mentally challenged adult to care for your child to prove it. Though they are far nicer, more selfless, loving and forgiving people than average they also have disadvantages. Just like all of us...
Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, advantages and disadvantages. Fear of inadequacy and hiding from glorious differences is the flip side but the same driving force as racism.
</soapbox>
-------------------- The curse of Genius is the constant scrutiny of lesser minds... The curse of Stupidity is the constant delusion of Genius... The curse of Insanity is the constant perception of scrutiny... Keirsey Temperament: ENTP (Take it Here)
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lipa
Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,684
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Re: Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains?? [Re: ShivaMeme]
#8068470 - 02/25/08 12:50 PM (16 years, 26 days ago) |
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Please lets not get so into human genetics guy's. We should all know by now that in breeding mushrooms, there is no "sex". If man or animal could mate with mushrooms that would be fantastic and I would love to see it.
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lipa
Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,684
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Re: Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains?? [Re: HerbBaker]
#8068512 - 02/25/08 01:04 PM (16 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
warriorsoul said: Thanks. Ive already read it. I want to know if there is an easier way to make crosses when breeding for a certain phenotype. Mixing the spores in water would be alot easier than isolating monokaryotic hyphae.
What's the difference. You still have to isolate the monokaryotic tissue after they germinate. I am just now getting into mating tissue and don't know much. so I can't give you much advice on the subject. I think you should just isolate for now and start crossing them and see what happens. Only then will you really understand " with a little help of the experienced" what it is all about. I personally think your jumping the gun on learning here. And I didn't mean that in a bad way.
Edited by lipa (02/25/08 02:43 PM)
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fastfred
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Re: Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains?? [Re: lipa]
#8073161 - 02/26/08 03:48 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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> Mushroom genetics don't work in the same way as normal genetics.
LOL While there are differences in the sexual cycle, the molecular basis is still the same. The same Mendelian genetics apply.
I would have to disagree with RR on the strain aspect. It is simply scientific convention to name each sample collected from the wild as a separate strain. The designations strain or sub-strain just don't really have any firm meaning other than as a naming convention.
If I went to a field and collected several samples they would first be named as samples. If there were any morphological differences they would be named as separate strains. Samples collected from different locations or by different researchers would be named as separate strains. Strains are often later found to be the same and the nomenclature is revised.
As far as "hybrids" you can call things whatever you want for the most part. You could call them intra-species hybrids or inter-strain hybrids. Some might disagree with that nomenclature, but they would know exactly what you mean. Therefore it's a useful term.
Hybrids are generally considered to be between species, but species boundaries are usually defined by mating compatibility, so the terminology is certainly not the clearest.
Anyhow, your best bet for creating strain crosses is to dilute your spore solution to obtain only a couple spores per plate and then use the monokaryons obtained to create dikaryotic cultures. Workman also came up with a useful technique of colonizing some substrate with a monokaryon and then adding spores of the other strain to obtain a good percentage of crosses.
Other techniques would involve genetic markers. Using recessive traits you would need to take the crosses to the F2 generation to see them expressed. i.e. obtain spores from your crosses and then grow them out. Redboy, PE, and albino are all recessive I believe. I'm not really aware of any dominant markers.
Another techniques involves mutation, finding auxotrophs, then using nutritional complementation on minimal media to find verified crosses. Obviously this is beyond most people's capabilities and introduces deleterious mutations into your genetics that will take awhile to breed out, but if you're interested look up "filtration enrichment" + "auxotroph".
Workman's done a good job of coming up with a simple technique. Perhaps we should create a guide on ways to accomplish crosses since there seems to be so much interest in the topic. It might answer most of the basic questions and get some people involved in the more advanced aspects of mycology.
One book that might be useful is "Genetics and Breeding of Edible Mushrooms". It's quite technical and focuses way too much on the parasexual cycle and protoplast fusion, but there is some interesting info and examples of hybrids that have been created.
-FF
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MycoAu
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Re: Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains?? [Re: fastfred]
#8073201 - 02/26/08 04:03 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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I've considering purchasing that book, but as mentioned, it seems to be a little too complicated and expensive just to find out that I might not need that level of explanation. I'm interested in the information, as are several other members, I'm sure. It would definitely be appreciated if one or a couple of the "advanced" members could collaborate to create a user friendly approach to "hydrids" (or whatever term you decide to use).
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fastfred
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Re: Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains?? [Re: MycoAu]
#8073329 - 02/26/08 04:39 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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I think that would be a good idea. I just don't really have the time myself to put much time into it.
I nominate.... Workman and RR!
I'd be happy to help out as much as I can. We might get more people with advanced breeding programs and fewer with "Can I just mix the spores?" questions.
-FF
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains?? [Re: fastfred]
#8076090 - 02/27/08 06:08 AM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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LOL. Maybe if someone actually addresses my question.. System prevents selfing, promotes outcrossing. As long as the Afactors and B factors are different they mate. Differences are based on alleles present at each of the A factor loci, and each of the B factor loci. A(allele set 1)1 A(allele set2)2 B(alllele set1)1 B(allele set2)2
A1B1 mates with A2B2 succesfully. Dikaryon. A1B1 mating with A2B1 might form clamps but not true clamps, no success. A2B1 mates with A2B2 no clamps, no success. Mating between a single strain 1/4 compatability. Mating between two different strains, that share NO common parents, 100% compatable. Mating between two strains that share a like A or B factor will result in 3/4 compatability. If there is no common parent there should be over a 98% of mating. This doesn't apply to mixing Mycelium of different strains, though, of course. Only to different spores mating. why wouldnt some of the offspring be hybrids?
Edited by HerbBaker (02/27/08 06:21 AM)
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