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InvisibletrendalM
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Free-will Experiment...
    #7949402 - 01/29/08 07:55 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

A post of Fugai's got me thinking about this...

When dealing with computers there is no such thing as "random". A computer cannot choose a truly random number, it can only make "pseudo-random" choices to approximate what "random" is.

When dealing with humans, however, it is perfectly normal to think that someone can give me a random number. We can do it without thinking, 48476. I chose that completely at random, or so I think.

Is that truly random? How can I know that what I choose isn't based on previous experience?

So I thought of a little experiment! Well not so little. Ask people on the street to give you a random 5 digit number. Ask a lot of them. Make sure you ask them to tell you the number, not type it or anything (don't ask online)...we wouldn't want to include the physically-random movements of a hand moving over a keyboard, just the psychological ones made by a human spitting out a number.

With enough responses, it should be possible to find something based on the probable number of numbers (0,1,2,...,9) and the actual recorded numbers. Or maybe you'd find nothing at all, which is what you should expect if you believe in free-will :wink:

Does anyone know of an experiment like this? If it hasn't been done, does anyone care to try? (I am not in a position to do it)


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisibledeimya
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: trendal]
    #7949449 - 01/29/08 08:08 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

But is free-will related to randomness ? If it is so, then is it really one's will since, after all, it is random ? I think they are being confused.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: deimya]
    #7949469 - 01/29/08 08:15 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, I think free-will and randomness are intimately related. You can't have one and not the other. If you can do nothing that is random, then you have no free-will because I could (with enough data) predict exactly what you would do in any circumstance.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineCubie
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: trendal]
    #7949487 - 01/29/08 08:20 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think Chris angel uses shit like that for his number tricks.

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: trendal]
    #7949494 - 01/29/08 08:22 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

This post assumes the brain doesn't have a pseudo random digit function :wink:


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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Invisibledeimya
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: trendal]
    #7949509 - 01/29/08 08:29 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

But if it's random, it's not will, therefore it's not free-will or it is illusory free will.

And with enough data you would just end up giving probabilities for certain things to happen, Laplace's demon is dead.

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InvisibleChronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: deimya]
    #7949519 - 01/29/08 08:32 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

We are so mentally conditioned we are imprisoned within our own minds, freeing your mind is the only way to live with free will.

haviong you own country/laws could help too


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: psyka]
    #7949527 - 01/29/08 08:34 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyka said:
This post assumes the brain doesn't have a pseudo random digit function :wink:




Actually I think it does...it's what gives us the "feeling" of being in control :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: deimya]
    #7949530 - 01/29/08 08:34 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deimya said:
But if it's random, it's not will, therefore it's not free-will or it is illusory free will.

And with enough data you would just end up giving probabilities for certain things to happen, Laplace's demon is dead.




Do you believe in free-will?

In practice I might only be able to come up with probabilities...but in theory I could accumulate enough data to predict what you would do every time.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Edited by trendal (01/29/08 08:36 AM)

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Invisibledeimya
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: psyka]
    #7949536 - 01/29/08 08:36 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyka said:
This post assumes the brain doesn't have a pseudo random digit function :wink:




Exactly, and given that some pseudo random number generators have incredibly big periods, there's no way we could distinguish it from real randomness with only 6 billions peoples, even if you asked each of them 6 billions times.

My take is that you would only end up measuring several different human biases about digits.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: deimya]
    #7949543 - 01/29/08 08:37 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

My take is that you would only end up measuring several different human biases about digits.

Bingo :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisibledeimya
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: trendal]
    #7949564 - 01/29/08 08:43 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Do you believe in free-will?





I don't know.

Quote:

trendal said:
In practice I might only be able to come up with probabilities...but in theory I could accumulate enough data to predict what you would do every time.




No, in theory also, there exist "non-commuting" observables from which you could never obtain exact data about one without being uncertain about the other. Laplace's demon was proven to be dead around the start of the 20th century.

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: deimya]
    #7949648 - 01/29/08 09:10 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

lol I find this whole free will debate funny. Just another example how we like to get caught up in our own dualistic delusions. The truth is "god" does not have a plan and things are not purely random. We can find order in chaos, if we look hard enough.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: trendal]
    #7949665 - 01/29/08 09:18 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Yes, I think free-will and randomness are intimately related. You can't have one and not the other. If you can do nothing that is random, then you have no free-will because I could (with enough data) predict exactly what you would do in any circumstance.




Random humor is the best of humor, for those who are serious enough to disagree then I hereby be the judge that you have no free-will.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: deranger]
    #7950417 - 01/29/08 01:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

When dealing with computers there is no such thing as "random". A computer cannot choose a truly random number, it can only make "pseudo-random" choices to approximate what "random" is.




Better be careful making such claims. Various Intel CPUs (non-x86, the i820 for example) have true random number generators, built in, that work by using thermal noise for entropy.

Quote:

Does anyone know of an experiment like this?




Kind of... I know a pretty nice card illusion that works on a trick of the human mind. A person picks a card, remembers it, sticks it back in the deck. The deck is shuffled, and four cards are picked by the magician. The cards are shown one at a time with the question, "Is this your card". After each "no" reply, the card is set face down, in a line, from the spectator towards the magician. (none of the shown cards will match) The magician asks the spector to point to one of the face down cards. The other three cards are collected, and the spectator turns over the chosen card (without it having been touched by the magician). The card is the one picked by the spectator at the start of the trick.

The above works as described about 90% of the time. Around 10% of the time the spectator will have to be led to the correct card. Obviously, there is a bit of slight of hand going on, but the "free will" part where the spectator picks the card is based on human nature. Line up four cards, in a line from the spectator with card one towards you with card four, and ask them to pick one. 9 times out of 10, the same card location will be picked. (the card 2nd from the spectator)

Edited by Seuss (01/29/08 01:36 PM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: Seuss]
    #7951518 - 01/29/08 05:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Ask people to give you a few numbers at random and zero will rarely be given.

Nature abhors a vacuum, and humans abhor a zero, it seems. :mushroom2:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: Cubie]
    #7951946 - 01/29/08 06:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cubie said:
I think Chris angel uses shit like that for his number tricks.




The one trick is to pick a two digit number from 0 to 50, with both individual numbers being odd....
Pick one now, and scroll down for answer....


















































37....?

It is a trick based on probability....
Sometimes it hits, sometimes it doesn't....
They don't air the ones that don't hit....    :wink:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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OfflineCubie
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7952109 - 01/29/08 07:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Lol. I picked 28 btw

I knew he was a fake.
Who knows how he hovered above that parimid place in vagas?

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: Cubie]
    #7952141 - 01/29/08 07:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

LoL, you didn't follow the instructions.....!

Both individual numbers in your two digit number have to be ODD....    :wink:


He is not a "fake", he is an illusionist entertainer....
To entertain you with illusions.....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Free-will Experiment... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7954672 - 01/30/08 07:23 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

for some reason i knew you wanted me to pick 37 so i picked 13. i am win!!

no but i just wanted to tell a little story.

i held a contest in a videogame recently. i picked a number between 1-500, and i said whoever guessed the number would get a fantastic item.

out of about 250 guesses, i noticed that ALOT of people, perhaps 30-40 guessed in the 340-350 range. also i forget excactly which unity of ten it was, but about 20-30 people guessed in the 460 range (i can't remember, it might have been 470 or 430?).

only one person guessed zero, about 10 people each guessed 1 and 500, about 7 guessed 499.

no one got the correct answer before i was asked to stop, the correct answer was 24.


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