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OfflineBrAiN
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For those against universal health care
    #7918921 - 01/23/08 07:03 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

For those against Universal Health care, which idea bothers you the most (serious question)?

a) The money issue (taxes going up to pay for a bunch of welfare queens)

or

b) The beaurocracy (the theory that healthcare quality will go down or that people will have to wait forever for critical operations or that we'll have the governmeny 'choosing' our doctors)

or

c) these bother me equally

I'm just curious.

If either the taxes or the beaurocracy are your problem, would you be more likely to support health care if HYPOTHETICALLY either one of these two (or both) could be kept to a manageable level (like taxes only going up a few bucks a month for you or knowing that your health care level would be pretty much the same as it is now)


I voted (d) I'm for univeral health care, but I think those who are against it have a valid point. It IS a free country and in a free country you shouldn't be forced to pay for someone else if you don't want to. I'm just curious as to what the opponents are MOST concerned with more than anything
what bothers you most about universal health care
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (01/23/08 07:03 AM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll


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Offlineidreamofpiggies
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Registered: 06/15/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7918937 - 01/23/08 07:10 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

It IS a free country and in a free country you shouldn't be forced to pay for someone else if you don't want to




By that same token you could say that people shouldn't have to pay ANY taxes if they don't want to...
Pretty silly statement if you ask me.


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Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. - marianne williamson

What I do nobody notices... Till it stops - Garry Talent on the Bass.

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7919021 - 01/23/08 07:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

What about personal responsibility and accountability?

Well of your choices, I choose taxes. We already cannot provide all the entitlements we promise to old people. The biggest piece of the national debt is to old people to whom we promised money they didnt earn. If we want a serious debate on providing more entitlement, we need first to find a way to pay for the old entitlements.

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InvisibleArp
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Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7919034 - 01/23/08 08:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I already have universal health care, and it has been working fine for my entire life, so can't really say that anything bothers me about it :smile:

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Invisibleafoaf
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7919112 - 01/23/08 08:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

universal health care is a joke.

like social security reform and the war on drugs.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Registered: 06/25/01
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Arp]
    #7919119 - 01/23/08 08:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
I already have universal health care, and it has been working fine for my entire life, so can't really say that anything bothers me about it :smile:




Same here.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Offlinerizingfire
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7919133 - 01/23/08 08:42 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I would prefer privatized care instead. Notice how Canadians prefer to get stuff done on visits to the US? Universal care is crappy. Romneys plan is decent. You chose the provider and the govt pays for it. That sounds like a better deal. I had masshealth and you had to stay awake for operations instead of being put out with real insurance. Fuck that!


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aka NHMI

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: rizingfire]
    #7919153 - 01/23/08 08:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

rizingfire said:
I would prefer privatized care instead. Notice how Canadians prefer to get stuff done on visits to the US?




Not really, but I have noticed a lot of well-insured Americans saying that.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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InvisibleArp
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Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7919165 - 01/23/08 08:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

You chose the provider and the govt pays for it.




Sorta how it works here in Sweden. Plenty of private clinics, growing in number, where the government picks up the tab.

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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: afoaf]
    #7919168 - 01/23/08 08:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
universal health care is a joke.

like social security reform and the war on drugs.




People in the countries who have it seem to like it. Why is it such a joke? I don't see Canada's, or the UK's or France's economies crumbling any time soon.

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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: rizingfire]
    #7919173 - 01/23/08 08:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

rizingfire said:
I would prefer privatized care instead. Notice how Canadians prefer to get stuff done on visits to the US? Universal care is crappy. Romneys plan is decent. You chose the provider and the govt pays for it. That sounds like a better deal. I had masshealth and you had to stay awake for operations instead of being put out with real insurance. Fuck that!




That's what I'm talking about. Universal Health care doesn't HAVE to mean the gov't runs health care. The gov't gives poor people food stamps but you don't have to go to a government run supermarket to get your food.

Is that was Mitt is actually proposing?

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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: idreamofpiggies]
    #7919183 - 01/23/08 09:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

idreamofpiggies said:
Quote:

It IS a free country and in a free country you shouldn't be forced to pay for someone else if you don't want to




By that same token you could say that people shouldn't have to pay ANY taxes if they don't want to...
Pretty silly statement if you ask me.




Well.. everyone uses roads. Your house might burn down and the firemen are a "free" taxpayer service but if you didn't have them and were too poor to afford a firetruck to come to your place, your neighborhodo would burn to the ground.

The only benefit to the "good" of society to have universal health care is to raise the general health level so overall, less money needs to be spent on operations because people can get prevention treatment and diseases detected early on.

That sort of "general benefit" isn't as immediate of a benefit as your neighborhood burning down in a few hours... but for me, I think it's good enough reason to have some sort of universal system.

For you older americans here in the forum, was was health care in the states like back in the 60's? Were major operations just as expensive? Were insurance companies just a rampant back then or when people had 100,000 dollar operations were they forced to come up with a payment plan?

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7919306 - 01/23/08 10:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Those of you who voted for it, should do some research into what those who have plans to get everyone covered entail. from what I have read about their different plans , one thing is consistent. They'll get everyone covered by making it a LAW that you have to be buying coverage through your employer.

If you will be able to afford to have premiums taken out of your paycheck later, why don't you have them taken out now?

It's going hurt those living pay check to paycheck.

Secondly, whatever 'free care" may become available to those without a job, it will be very shoddy and a lot of care will be denied or prolonged, to the point of where it may be useless by the time you can get treatment done.

In the mean time, you are helping to a create a system, that will screw you over when you get better established later in life, if private choice for doctors and specialists are no longer covered by the insurance the government has set up for you through your employer.

It's a no wonder this country has taken so many wrong turns towards a nanny state. People buy the "feel good" and "do for me now" rhetoric and make poor choices to support poor actions that favor big Corp, not the little guy in the end.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineChemy
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Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 6,276
Loc: A Church
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: For those against universal health care *DELETED* [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7920085 - 01/23/08 02:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: If you are sure you want to do this, click the button below. Yes, I want to delete this post.



--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Chemy]
    #7920380 - 01/23/08 04:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Nope. Part of the law would change it so insurance companies can no longer deny for pre-existing conditions. Socialism at it's best. I would much rather see them fix the medical industry as a whole so that socialist medicine would not be needed. Unfortunately, the problems are complex and far reaching... everything from special interests to illegal aliens to corrupt doctors to ambulance chasing lawyers.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Registered: 07/20/04
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Chemy]
    #7920385 - 01/23/08 04:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

They'll get everyone covered by making it a LAW that you have to be buying coverage through your employer.




I have cirohsis and I have been denied by every insurance company and medicaid becuase of this pre-existing condition. Which is no problem I pay cash, except I can't afford a liver transplant which I don't need anyway.

My question is: since I can't get insurance would I be violating the law if this so-called universal healthcare proposal is affirmed?




That's a good question and I havn't heard it asked of the canidates proposing it or answered.

It needs to be answered because in at least one of their plans, you will have to have proof of insurance before you can be hired for a job.

I wish I could remember whose that one was. I think it's Hillary's.

Find a Hillary forum somewhere and ask them. I wonder if they even know the answer or thought about it about how it will work for those who are currently denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineChemy
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Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 6,276
Loc: A Church
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: For those against universal health care *DELETED* [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7920450 - 01/23/08 04:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: If you are sure you want to do this, click the button below. Yes, I want to delete this post.



--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Chemy]
    #7920797 - 01/23/08 05:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You must have shitty insurance.

Do yourself a favor and don't get all of your information from Mr. Moore.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineChemy
Jesus is Lord

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 6,276
Loc: A Church
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: For those against universal health care *DELETED* [Re: Chemy]
    #7920859 - 01/23/08 05:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: If you are sure you want to do this, click the button below. Yes, I want to delete this post.



--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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Offlinepsycho.reactive
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 53
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Chemy]
    #7921075 - 01/23/08 06:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The beaurocracy (the theory that healthcare quality will go down or that people will have to wait forever for critical operations or that we'll have the governmeny 'choosing' our doctors) <- this is not really a issue but more of a myth which has been proven not true

i guess "government for the people by the people" has no relevance anymore. but i guess if you like the idea of hospitals literally throwing sick people out onto the streets, the HMO system is splendid.

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