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Invisibledorkus
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Human, all too human *DELETED*
    #7887176 - 01/16/08 03:26 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by dorkus

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Human, all too human [Re: dorkus]
    #7887476 - 01/16/08 07:36 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Excellent video as well (at least the Nietzsche one, which I watched).
He was quite a tragic existence. His sad circumstances gave him quite a negative outlook on reality [where he ignored his own responsibility of handling his emotions], resulting in his solution:
good = strength and
bad = weakness.
That is absolutely not true, as we can see for example in other recent threads here (can't remember exactly), about the ability to 'to let it happen', seen as a virtue.
Meaning, not only to force and to stress things to the top, figuring out and maintaining control about everything, which almost is not possible in greater schemes and in the long run will lead to a more narrow outlook on the wholeness of possibilities, BUT even to 'let it go' and 'let things happen' (if they are not immediate dangerous or harmful) to learn and participate.

Imho, he assumed and tried and wished and dreamed so much about the 'transcendence' of mankind itself, that he himself was not able to do it anymore. He forced it too much and forgot to sometimes simply 'let it go' or 'let it happen'.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinestraasha
Grandfaloon


Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Human, all too human [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7888396 - 01/16/08 02:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

To just let things happen requires control, just like meditation requires control, in this they are willful acts and becoming better at them (stronger) is desirable, if thats what you desire.

I for one like his ideas, they have helped me in my life and consider him among the most insightful writers when it comes to defining the human condition.

"One thing is needful. Giving style to one's character - a great and rare art! It is exercised by those who see all the strength and weaknesses of their own nature and them comprehend them in an artistic plan till everything appears as art and reason, and even weakness delights the eye. Here a large part of second nature has been added; there a piece of original nature has been removed: both by long practice and daily labor. Here the ugly that could not be removed is hidden; there it has been reinterpreted and made sublime... it will be the strong and domineering natures who enjoy their finest gaiety in such compulsion, in such constraint and perfection under a law of their own; the passion of their tremendous will relents when confronted with stylized, conquered and serving nature; even when they have to build palaces and lay out gardens, they demur giving nature a free hand.
Conversely it is the weak characters without power over themselves who hate the constraints of style... they hate to serve. Such spirits... are always out to interpret themselves and their environment as free... nature - wild... arbitrary... fantastic, disorderly... only in this way do they please themselves. For one thing is needful: that a human being attain his satisfaction with himself... only then is a human being tolerable to behold. Whoever is dissatisfied with himself is always ready to revenge himself therefore; we others will be his victims" -Nietzsche, The Gay science.

Also Goethe

"All force strives forward to work far and wide
To live and grow and ever to expand;
Yet we are checked and thwarted on each side
By the word's flux and swept along like sand:
In is this internal storm and outward tide
We hear a promise hard to understand:
From compulsion that all creature binds,
Who overcomes himself, his freedom finds"
-Goethe, The mysteries

These viewpoints seem healthy and full of vitality to me.
Comments?

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Offlinestraasha
Grandfaloon


Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Human, all too human [Re: straasha]
    #7892044 - 01/17/08 08:09 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Hello? Anybody there? where is the distention this forum is famous for?

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Human, all too human [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7892224 - 01/17/08 09:32 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Excellent video as well (at least the Nietzsche one, which I watched).
He was quite a tragic existence. His sad circumstances gave him quite a negative outlook on reality [where he ignored his own responsibility of handling his emotions], resulting in his solution:
good = strength and
bad = weakness.
That is absolutely not true, as we can see for example in other recent threads here (can't remember exactly), about the ability to 'to let it happen', seen as a virtue.
Meaning, not only to force and to stress things to the top, figuring out and maintaining control about everything, which almost is not possible in greater schemes and in the long run will lead to a more narrow outlook on the wholeness of possibilities, BUT even to 'let it go' and 'let things happen' (if they are not immediate dangerous or harmful) to learn and participate.

Imho, he assumed and tried and wished and dreamed so much about the 'transcendence' of mankind itself, that he himself was not able to do it anymore. He forced it too much and forgot to sometimes simply 'let it go' or 'let it happen'.




He saw through the human bullshit lie but could do little about it in himself. I tend to agree with your assessment of him.

He couldn't comprehend that maybe control included the ability to let go.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledorkus
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Re: Human, all too human *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #7896010 - 01/18/08 03:23 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by dorkus

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Offlinestraasha
Grandfaloon


Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Human, all too human [Re: Icelander]
    #7896152 - 01/18/08 06:14 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

On "letting go", i'm not too sure what you mean by this but the way i see it, it could be one of two things: Either its the kind of letting go which proceeds from weakness, which is merely the a vain attempt to gain respite from life by those who cannot tolerate the burden of their own existence, usually taking the form of addictions and undisciplined and harmful behavior.

"Such spirits... are always out to interpret themselves and their environment as free... nature - wild... arbitrary... fantastic, disorderly... only in this way do they please themselves. "

The only way they can make their existence tolerable is to try and avoid taking responsibility and control over their lives which i would consider masochistic.

Or there is the letting go that proceeds from strength which is letting things happen with the full confidence that you will be able to deal with them, this is more akin to riding the crest of a wave. The wave itself is beyond your control but you can make of it what you will to an extent.

While this form of letting go is desirable one should still at all times try and extend control over the circumstances of ones existence wherever possible (to grow and ever to expand). Ideally without being controlled by the need to control (see "Letting go")

Did you mean something like this Icelander or a third option?

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OfflineBoots
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Re: Human, all too human [Re: straasha]
    #7896229 - 01/18/08 07:01 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Nietzsche had some good ideas and his essays were good but Thus Spoke Zarathustra sucked as far as interesting stories go. Although, I did like his criticisms of social Darwinism.

By the way, to all who care, there is a band called Anaal Nathrakh that have many song titles relating to Nietzsche's ideas: "Human, All Too Fucking Human", "The Reevaluation Of All Values", and "Cataclysmic Nihilism". Very abrasive but an interesting band.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Human, all too human [Re: straasha]
    #7896363 - 01/18/08 07:57 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Some humans seem more of a control freak than the others.
Of course it is some animal trait, which humans sadly tend to exaggerate.
It's becoming difficult if a extreme control freak wants to control things that can't be controlled and he becomes insane if that what he wants to control is behaving opposed to his intents. I prefer chinese finger traps on them :grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinestraasha
Grandfaloon


Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Human, all too human [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7896577 - 01/18/08 09:03 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

It has been my experience that the term "control freak" is used most often by those who have no power to maintain their quiet sense of moral superiority over those who do, this creative labeling that calls weakness virtue is necessary for the weak the lazy or the stupid to be tolerable to themselves.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Human, all too human [Re: dorkus]
    #7896597 - 01/18/08 09:09 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dorkus said:
well i dont know, but from what i remember (havent watched it since july last year, and never read his work) he described the process of writing 'thus spake zarathustra' and i will be damned if that didnt sound like he was letting go.

actually on second thought i agree. with all three of you even though you debate.

does this mean im damned? :blush:

re strasha

love the goethe quote. need to get into his stuff soon.




There is a vast difference between intellectual understanding a experiential understanding. Old programs die hard even though we know they are faulty.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Human, all too human [Re: straasha]
    #7896609 - 01/18/08 09:11 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Or there is the letting go that proceeds from strength which is letting things happen with the full confidence that you will be able to deal with them, this is more akin to riding the crest of a wave. The wave itself is beyond your control but you can make of it what you will to an extent

This is what N was endeavoring to approach IMO. He may not have actualized it within himself in the short time he had left however.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinestraasha
Grandfaloon


Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Human, all too human [Re: Icelander]
    #7896640 - 01/18/08 09:20 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I agree Icelander. Here's a question for you, where do you think desire features in all this?

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Human, all too human [Re: straasha]
    #7896665 - 01/18/08 09:28 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Desire? I'm not sure what you mean. But desire is a motivator for sure.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinestraasha
Grandfaloon


Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Human, all too human [Re: Icelander]
    #7896708 - 01/18/08 09:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

hehe, just hoping you'd riff a bit and keep the thread alive.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Human, all too human [Re: straasha]
    #7896773 - 01/18/08 10:02 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Slippery slope.
I tend to emphasize the other side, the control-free room, which one even hasn't the illusion to be in control over.
If N. could have realized that, he maybe would have been personally able to transcend his 'humanity'.
It's like the thought of forcing someone to sleep, what made him struggle..


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinestraasha
Grandfaloon


Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Human, all too human [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7899036 - 01/18/08 08:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The will to power made him struggle, i dont think your getting this.

What makes anyone want to master their environment? where would we be without this urge?

"the control-free form" would be weakness in Nietzsches philosophy.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Human, all too human [Re: straasha]
    #7899481 - 01/18/08 10:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

That's what I criticize. At least, N. was no blinding example of his theory and should consider himself as weak (= bad) according to his rules. At least, unless there comes something 'good' out of his weakness, I can't trust his rules (because they came out of weakness and therefore are bad). So I can't believe this paradox nonsense and I think he wasn't able to believe it as well, else he would have done something with it. No he lost himself in the abstract, proving the impracticability of his theorems.

And I don't say, control is all bad. Of course not, but the over-emphasizing of this one aspect hinders one to find a balanced standpoint on the scale.
Sometimes control is the mean of choice, sometimes 'letting go/happen' is. Mostly it's a combination of both with different amplitudes :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinestraasha
Grandfaloon


Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Human, all too human [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7901516 - 01/19/08 12:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Are you basing your statements on that 40 minute film?

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