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Naveed
Student
Registered: 09/12/07
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Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays
#7855394 - 01/09/08 06:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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This is what happens when you let a bulk sub(coir/popcorn) sit for too long when you use the Aluminum baking trays.
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Skeeblix
Dave Thomas
Registered: 01/28/07
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: Naveed]
#7855419 - 01/09/08 07:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Pretty scary what nature is capable of, isn't it?
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: Skeeblix]
#7855442 - 01/09/08 07:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've seen it happen prior to first flush. Search for a recent thread on this very subject. I sent a mushroom for metals analysis to test for aluminum content. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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r311ik
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7855865 - 01/09/08 08:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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how long ago? when can we expect results?
if the aluminum is being consumed, what dangers are there to mixing aluminum shavings into substrate as food?
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: r311ik]
#7855890 - 01/09/08 08:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7856097 - 01/09/08 08:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7689871#Post7689871
Just to summarize that post, according to the metals analysis aluminum is apparently not transported into the fruits, even when trays are dissolved.
Even if it were aluminum is not a heavy metal, nor is it toxic. There are plenty of other dietary sources of aluminum such as cookware and aluminum cans that would be more important in the larger scheme of things.
-FF
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KillerPicklez
Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 16,920
Loc:
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: fastfred]
#7856166 - 01/09/08 09:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hmmmm I wonder if mushrooms would consume lead.
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Nibin
Getting there
Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4,480
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: KillerPicklez]
#7857733 - 01/10/08 04:46 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote from wikipedia as I can't be bothered to type out chunks of my textbooks
Quote:
Aluminium is a neurotoxin that alters the function of the blood-brain barrier.[29] It is one of the few abundant elements that appear to have no beneficial function to living cells. A small percentage of people are allergic to it — they experience contact dermatitis from any form of it: an itchy rash from using styptic or antiperspirant products, digestive disorders and inability to absorb nutrients from eating food cooked in aluminium pans, and vomiting and other symptoms of poisoning from ingesting such products as Amphojel, and Maalox (antacids). In other people, aluminium is not considered as toxic as heavy metals, but there is evidence of some toxicity if it is consumed in excessive amounts. The use of aluminium cookware, popular because of its corrosion resistance and good heat conduction, has not been shown to lead to aluminium toxicity in general. Excessive consumption of antacids containing aluminium compounds and excessive use of aluminium-containing antiperspirants are more likely causes of toxicity. Aluminium increases estrogen-related gene expression in human breast cancer cells grown in the laboratory.[30] These salts' estrogen-like effects have led to their classification as a metalloestrogen.
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: Nibin]
#7857777 - 01/10/08 05:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Aluminum can cause neurotoxicity != aluminum is a neurotoxin. (That's what the study cited actually says.)
Almost everything is neurotoxic in high enough doses. Aluminum is the most abundant element in the earth's crust so obviously it's about as safe as elements get since nobody dies of aluminum poisoning.
-FF
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veda_sticks
Cultivator
Registered: 07/29/07
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: fastfred]
#7857780 - 01/10/08 05:44 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I laugh now, at the people that previously maintained myc did not eat aluminium!!!
-------------------- PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666 Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek
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Naveed
Student
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: veda_sticks]
#7857825 - 01/10/08 06:36 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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These bulk trays have been colonized and sitting untouched for about 2 months.
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Nibin
Getting there
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: fastfred]
#7857887 - 01/10/08 07:04 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
fastfred said: Aluminum can cause neurotoxicity != aluminum is a neurotoxin. (That's what the study cited actually says.)
Almost everything is neurotoxic in high enough doses. Aluminum is the most abundant element in the earth's crust so obviously it's about as safe as elements get since nobody dies of aluminum poisoning.
-FF
But you don't normally go about eating it or rubbing it on yourself. As you say, almost everything is neurotoxic in high enough doses, CO2 or O2 for example.
But the issue was, do shrooms take up enough aluminium to cause neurotoxicity by occasional ingestion, and the test proves not, which is nice.
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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fastfred
Old Hand
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Posts: 6,899
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: Nibin]
#7857978 - 01/10/08 07:34 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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> But you don't normally go about eating it or rubbing it on yourself.
Oh really? You don't eat from aluminum cookware, use aluminum cooking utensils, or rub deodorant under your arms?
Quote:
But the issue was, do shrooms take up enough aluminium to cause neurotoxicity by occasional ingestion, and the test proves not, which is nice.
This has never really been the issue that fearmongers have made it out to be. The LD50 for aluminum nitrate is approx. 261 mg/kg. So for a 150 pound human you'd have to eat 17.7 grams to hit the LD50. Other forms of aluminum are even higher.
So even if your mushrooms were pure aluminum you wouldn't be eating enough to cause acute toxicity.
It's nice to know that even mushrooms that have eaten away a substantial amount of aluminum don't contain measurable quantities in the fruit bodies. But even if they did accumulate substantial quantities of aluminum in the fruit bodies it wouldn't be a health issue.
-FF
Quote:
Aluminum is a silver-white flexible metal with a vast number of uses. It is poorly absorbed and efficiently eliminated; however, when absorption does occur, aluminum is distributed mainly in bone, liver, testes, kidneys, and brain (ATSDR, 1990).
Quote:
Due to the poor absorption and efficient excretion of aluminum, acute oral toxicity is observed only after relatively large doses. The LD50 for aluminum nitrate in rats is 261 mg aluminum/kg (Llobet et al., 1987), and the LD50 for aluminum chloride in mice is 770 mg aluminum/kg (Ondreicka et al., 1966).
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Nibin
Getting there
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: fastfred]
#7858050 - 01/10/08 08:01 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
fastfred said: > But you don't normally go about eating it or rubbing it on yourself.
Oh really? You don't eat from aluminum cookware, use aluminum cooking utensils, or rub deodorant under your arms?
That was my point. Current ingestion and application of aluminium is under heavy scrutiny nowadays because our ingestion of aluminium has increased dramatically lately. (damn american english spellchecker it doesn't like my spelling of aluminium)
Yes, the LD50 is very high, but unless we know the correct absorption and excretion rates, long time buildup could be an issue.
I agree with you that it probably all a hype, but as it is a very unknown subject at the moment I prefer to keep an open mind about the stuff and the fact that it isn't absorbed by the shrooms is if anything, reassuring.
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: Nibin]
#7858100 - 01/10/08 08:16 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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> Current ingestion and application of aluminium is under heavy scrutiny nowadays
I wouldn't say so. We still use aluminum cookware and deodorant. Back during the Alzheimer's scare aluminum-free deodorants came out for awhile, but have since mostly disappeared.
The fact is that they haven't really linked quantities of aluminum that we might actually be able to take in with anything negative. Other than bone problems in babies from high levels of aluminum in soy milk I'm not aware of any health problems related to realistic levels of aluminum intake.
Anyhow, let's figure out the next big scare to get worked up about...
-FF
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Nibin
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: fastfred]
#7858118 - 01/10/08 08:25 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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There are quite a few researches around trying to find a link between different illnesses and aluminium exposure.
Breast cancer is a big one. One of my lecturers participated in a 5 year study but no conclusions either way were obtained.
No conclusive proof of anything has been reached. I classify aluminium in the same folder as mobile phone antennas. One of those things that while there is no real conclusive proof that they are damaging I try to avoid them if I can.
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Nibin
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: Nibin]
#7858122 - 01/10/08 08:25 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Double post, sorry
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
Edited by Nibin (01/10/08 08:26 AM)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: Nibin]
#7858257 - 01/10/08 09:05 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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The test I sent in was not just for aluminum, although I selected a substrate that grew in an aluminum tray to see if it was absorbed.
The main reason was that although lead based inks are illegal in the US, I wanted to make sure the manufacturers of the phone books I grew the shiitake on were not cheating or importing inks from china. I didn't want to recommend recycling old newspapers and phonebooks, junk mail, etc., into mushrooms if there was the risk of heavy metals contamination from the inks.
The tray in my picture had holes burned through prior to first flush, a period of only a few weeks. Aside from the aluminum contamination referenced/debunked above, the biggest problem could be the premature pinning caused by holes on the bottom of the tray. Bottom line: Find a different tray material for growing mushrooms. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Naveed
Student
Registered: 09/12/07
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7859803 - 01/10/08 02:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yea, the first holes starting appearing around 2-3 weeks, and then small secretions(droplets) started appearing.
As you said, the premature pinning is the greatest problem here.
When I had taken out the blocks to inspect, there was a hard crust of metal on the bottom and many mushrooms.
On one of the trays, it actually had a small mushroom growing out of a hole on the side.
I either line them now with garbage bag material or use plastic containers from now on.
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fastfred
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Re: Mushrooms and Aluminum Trays [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7860161 - 01/10/08 03:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: The test I sent in was not just for aluminum, although I selected a substrate that grew in an aluminum tray to see if it was absorbed.
The main reason was that although lead based inks are illegal in the US, I wanted to make sure the manufacturers of the phone books I grew the shiitake on were not cheating or importing inks from china.
It would have been interesting to see what the results would have been if you had used lead in the substrate.
-FF
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