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InvisibleEgo Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
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Registered: 04/27/03
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Stop posting about god
    #7821801 - 01/01/08 09:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

First thing I noticed here was how nobody agrees on the meaning of the word. This fundamental flaw renders all debate useless.

If you want to debate about god then you have to define your meaning first.

Personally, I realised years ago that god is just something humans made up to answer the questions "how and why are we here?"
You only have to look at a few seperate societies to realise that, we make up answers to questions if we don't have them.

I wish we would of evolved beyond such illogic.

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Offlinecheshirect666
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Re: Stop posting about god [Re: Ego Death]
    #7821844 - 01/01/08 09:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

well said friend
well said:thumbup:


--------------------
Not all who wander are lost.

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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Stop posting about god [Re: Ego Death]
    #7821847 - 01/01/08 09:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, some people just wanted a simple answer, so they came up with 'god'.
But as I was saying in another forum, to me, the concept of god is beyond describing, because it is so much. So I usually imply my own concept of the word when i'm talking about it with another person.
Yes, it would be nice for everyone to have it defined at some point in the conversation.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Stop posting about god [Re: Love Cap]
    #7822258 - 01/02/08 12:32 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

From another point of view, it is impossible not to post about God.

What happens when someone climbs down their own portal?

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="
&rel=0&color1=0xd6d6d6&color2=0xf0f0f0&border=0"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="
&rel=0&color1=0xd6d6d6&color2=0xf0f0f0&border=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

:tongue:

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Invisiblekaiowas
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
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Re: Stop posting about god [Re: Ego Death]
    #7822279 - 01/02/08 12:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ego Death said:
First thing I noticed here was how nobody agrees on the meaning of the word. This fundamental flaw renders all debate useless.

If you want to debate about god then you have to define your meaning first.

Personally, I realised years ago that god is just something humans made up to answer the questions "how and why are we here?"
You only have to look at a few seperate societies to realise that, we make up answers to questions if we don't have them.

I wish we would of evolved beyond such illogic.




i don't really think we as humans can evolve out of this sort of thinking (or as you said illogic). I mean we have this ability called metacognition. Combine this with emotions and you have a lot of stories on our hands.

But i do agree, define what we are talking about first before proceeding into discussion helps immensely.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Stop posting about god [Re: kaiowas]
    #7822354 - 01/02/08 12:59 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

holy shit, i need to watch Becoming John Malkovich again :thumbup:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Stop posting about god [Re: Ego Death]
    #7823060 - 01/02/08 10:18 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

There is Ultimate Reality, THAT (Sanskrit: TAT) which is Ultimately Real. Metaphysically (Hindu, Greek, Chinese) the Ultimately Real is Unqualified by attributes except Eternality. Jewish metaphysics (although one can scarecely attribute this Greek word to ancient Hebrew thought) centers on YHWH, Who indeed has attributes. The Yahwist (see Harold Bloom's Jesus and Yahweh) conceives not that 'God' is an anthropomorphisation of an Ultimate unknown, the Yahwist sees human beings as theomorphisations of Yahweh. In other words, we are beings created in 'the image and likeness' of Ultimate Reality - Who is Personal (and Transpersonal) but is certainly not impersonal. The Creator is not less than (personal) creation - us. Muslim's see Allah much as the ancient Yahwists saw YHVH. Allah has 99 Names and attributes to boot.

Did humans project their psyches onto a colorless Absolute, or have eternal personal attributes of Ultimate Reality formed humans in His/her own image? We can choose what to believe, but our choice may or may not reflect the Truth. This is why the Hindus wisely discerned between 'God-with-attributes' (Saguna Brahman) and 'God-without-attributes' (Nirguna Brahman). Buddha picked up on the latter and translated the subjective pole of our experience of Nirguna Brahman into Nirvana. Christians did pretty much the same with YHVH, because 'God the Father' is definately NOT the same as YHVH. No attributes are posited for God the Father except for agape (selfless love). Christianity doesn't have a God mysticism, only a Christ mysticism - becoming One with Philo's Logos.

Aryan (Hindu) and Greek thought (in particular) are very similar in crucial ways about the nature of Ultimate Reality. Greeks, through the Hellenized Jew Philo of Alexandria, created theology. The gospel writer John apparently used Philo's writings on the Logos - a pre-existent 'aspect' of the Neoplatonic 'One' and thereby injected a formerly Hebrew monotheistc mentality with the seeds of Greek thought which were to develop into the concept of a trinity.

There really are not that many important ideas of God in the history of thought, but there are countless half-baked modern notions based on idiosyncrasies and an unwillingness to utilize the themes, schemes and language of millennia-old ideas of God that have long been in place. I think that this is where your (and my own) objections might lie.

Talking about God doesn't give one any awareness of God. Only authentic mystical-religious experiences allow openings into dimensions of awareness in which Eternity can be experienced. Mystical experience is ineffable, it does not rely upon sense data or reason, and it is thus transrational. If one has NOT transcended the limits of reason, of rational (subject-object) discourse, then it is likely that one will toss the baby out with the bathwater and dismiss
as unreal THAT which is Ultimately Real.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Loc: underbelly
Re: Stop posting about god [Re: Ego Death]
    #7823217 - 01/02/08 11:03 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Personally, I realised years ago that god is just something humans made up to answer the questions "how and why are we here?"
You only have to look at a few seperate societies to realise that, we make up answers to questions if we don't have them.


While I agree with your subjective belief here, there is no evidence that proves there is no God, just as there is none to prove there is.

I wish we would of evolved beyond such illogic.

Fat chance IMO.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Stop posting about god [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7823239 - 01/02/08 11:09 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Only authentic mystical-religious experiences allow openings into dimensions of awareness in which Eternity can be experienced. Mystical experience is ineffable, it does not rely upon sense data or reason, and it is thus transrational. If one has NOT transcended the limits of reason, of rational (subject-object) discourse, then it is likely that one will toss the baby out with the bathwater and dismiss
as unreal THAT which is Ultimately Real.


IMO this is nothing but another opinion of what God/truth is. It is subjective to the max and without verifiable proofs and so is just as valid or invalid as any other statement about truth, God and reality. IMO it's ego inflation but that's just my belief based on my subjective beliefs as to "evidence" I have observed here and elsewhere. To me it's similar to the belief in creationism. Beliefs conforming to someones subjective fears and desires.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Stop posting about god [Re: Icelander]
    #7823773 - 01/02/08 01:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think that you confuse ego-inflation with ego-transcendence. The egoic mind, expanded to to point of a glimpse of Eternity, shatters the confines of the conceptual mind. Apparently, the affective component can expand to what BE HERE NOW and the Dalai Lama have referred to as "Unbearable Compassion," in which the emotional tone of the
Eternal or Rigpa or Clear Light, is seen to take on metaphysical significance. The Clear Light, according to the Dalai Lama has a subjective experiential pole, and an objective reality. The term Rigpa has several references (essential Rigpa, effulgent Rigpa, ground Rigpa, etc.) which H.H. elaborates on, but here, I am contrasting the notion of Rigpa as transcendental mind, versus ordinary egoic mind which H.H. calls sem. He cites the Buddha:

"The mind is devoid of mind,
for the nature of mind is Clear Light."

We've been down this road before, you and I, and it is absurd that you continue to requect proofs for an experience which IS subjective to the max. My response has always been the same, which is that authentic religious experience has a transforming effect on the experiencer, and those effects tend to conform to certain characteristics that Abraham Maslow described in his modern works on "B[eing]-Cognizers" or which R.M. Bucke illustrated in Cosmic Consciousness. No, suicide bombers, and haters in general do not belong to this category of "peak experiencers" (whence psychedelia derived its term for the height of a psychedelic experience).

As for me, it is personal Experience that I seek clarification for from those who hold superior knowledge, and not belief or wish fulfillment based upon attraction or aversion. The force of certain experiences has remained alive in the locus of 'my' psyche with sufficient strength to support a quest for clarity even now, some 36 years later. Illusions may indeed take decades to die and I continue to witness such illusions about persons and ideas perish. This however, is a different order of experience since the very fact of my own awareness is the object of my scrutiny. I do not need to 'believe' that I am aware, I simply need clarification on what means 'I' and what is awareness.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Stop posting about god [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7824027 - 01/02/08 02:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

My response has always been the same, which is that authentic religious experience has a transforming effect on the experiencer, and those effects tend to conform to certain characteristics that Abraham Maslow described in his modern works on "B[eing]-Cognizers"

As Maslow shows religious experience doesn't need to have anything to do with "a transforming effect on the experiencer". Calling it a religious experience is just a framework that you feel comfortable with. As is plain to see in humanity at large.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Stop posting about god [Re: Icelander]
    #7824284 - 01/02/08 04:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Maslow names mystical experience but does not enter into descriptions of it which is outside the provence of his then, humanistic, (now transpersonal) psychology. Jung, similarly, did not speculate as to the metaphysical origin of religious experience, but only said that the unconscious was the medium from which it flowed (Jung did not include a superconsciousness in his psychology, and he refused to visit Sri Ramana Maharshi when he had the opportunity, who might have corrected the Swiss doctor. Jung said dismissively: "I know the type." Indeed, the type of person who might actually correct his arrogant insistance).

There IS religious experience, and the phenomenology of certain experiences that have occurred to me fall into said category. I have explored the application of psychological theories, and I see how aspects of psychedelically "occasioned" experiences are filtered out and called "depersonalization," and "derealization." Ram Dass pointed out decades ago that states of religious ecstasy in the East are reduced to pathological states in the West, and this is true. However, except for a loosening of associations, a transient psychotic episode does not account for the breadth and depth of such experiences.

The opposite of 'reductionism' is 'expansionism.' The upward arc leads from a personal center of the psyche ('ego' in several theories like Assagiola's Psychosynthesis), to a transpersonal center (Self?), from which Awareness is divested of various degrees of identification. One might actually experience oneself as disembodied from the physical body - not in the limited sense of a more ethereal or astral body, but as a 'causal' body, which is to say an unbounded expanse of awareness of awareness. This unboundedness has a marked absence of psychosocialsocial identities, which means that there is an absence of thoughts which refer to one's body, social roles or even one's name. There are no thoughts available to the 'I' which is experiencing itself as this self-effulgent expanse. This is not an unconscious condition but rather a "hyperpranic" [Lama Govinda] or superconscious condition.

Do such states have neurological correlates? Undoubtedly. Are such states indicative of 'mind' that exists as a substratum of existence, and therefore exists prior to and independently of an embodied experiencer? Yes, for 'religious man,' No for secular man.

A Synopsis of Eliade's The Sacred and the Profane
Crucial to an understanding of Eliade's The Sacred and the Profane are three categories: the Sacred (which is a transcendent referent such as the gods, God, or Nirvana), hierophany (which is the breakthrough of the sacred into human experience, i.e. a revelation), and homo religiosus (the being par excellence prepared to appreciate such a breakthrough). One of Eliade's aims is to acquaint readers with the idea of the numinous, a concept provided in Rudolf Otto's The Idea of the Holy. The numinous experience is that experience of the Sacred which is particular to religious human beings (homo religiosus) in that it is experientially overwhelming, encompassing the mysterium tremendum et fascinans, both the awesomely fearful and the enthrallingly captivating aspects of the Holy, or, the Wholly Other . In expanding and expounding the phenomenological dimensions of the Sacred, Eliade points out that the Sacred appears in human experience as a crucial point of orientation at the same time it provides access to the ontological reality which is its source and for which homo religiosus thirsts. According to Eliade, homo religiosus thirsts for being. In terms of space, the Sacred delineates the demarcation between sacred and profane and thus locates the axis mundi as center. Thus temples and teepees, homes and hearths become sacralized for homo religiosus. Numerous examples of the consecration of sacred space illustrate the importance of cosmogony as a paradigmatic model for practically every creative endeavor. Such cosmogonic activities as were done "in the beginning" (in illo tempore) are recapitulated periodically in ritual and myth to sustain and renew the world, hence, not only does space become sacred, but time as well. The festival, such as New Year's Celebration, has a way of tapping into primordial time and harnessing the forces of creation into re-creation, dipping into chaos and re-emerging with new order.


BTW, Happy New Year!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Stop posting about god [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7824296 - 01/02/08 04:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Thats very interesting.

Somehow I feel as humans we are stuck in a dualistic rationality or irrationality.

To be able to perceive beyond these boundaries is intriguing and not something that I appear to be capable of.

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Stop posting about god [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7824305 - 01/02/08 04:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You transcend words with these ideas.

If they are real the only way to possibly convey them would be through a means of thought transfer.

Words, although inspiring, can convert no objective mind, although may do good to set a path if that path indeed is good.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Stop posting about god [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7824851 - 01/02/08 06:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Do such states have neurological correlates? Undoubtedly. Are such states indicative of 'mind' that exists as a substratum of existence, and therefore exists prior to and independently of an embodied experiencer? Yes, for 'religious man,' No for secular man.


Exactly. Both can and do experience such states and define them according to personal beliefs, (which may, then, have nothing to do with the experience itself); I have gone in both directions. I find my current belief the most honest one for me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinepapixx
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Re: Stop posting about god [Re: Ego Death]
    #7828169 - 01/03/08 04:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ego Death said:
I wish we would of evolved beyond such illogic.




Me too.


--------------------
''Nothing lasts but nothing is lost''

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Stop posting about god [Re: Ego Death]
    #7828185 - 01/03/08 04:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I wish we would of...




I wish we could all write proper English.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Stop posting about god [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7828196 - 01/03/08 04:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

To what porpoise?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Stop posting about god [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7828202 - 01/03/08 04:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I wish we would of...




I wish we could all write proper English.




Now you're getting greddy


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: Stop posting about god [Re: Icelander]
    #7828205 - 01/03/08 04:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

To display awareness and knowledge. There is no pride to be taken in sloppiness and ignorance. It is not the Buddha-way. Meditate each moment.


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