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Offlinezhenka11230
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Registered: 12/06/07
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Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion.
    #7724175 - 12/06/07 12:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Hello fellow thinkers,

I found Christianity/New Age to be finally fading away under the influence of rational thought and scientific evidence, but there is one little thorn of insanity stuck in the world that is often mistaken to be our ally, often being equated to atheism and ration, namely -- Buddhism.

In this essay I would like to attack this notion and reveal Buddhism for what it really is -- Culturally constructed religion of beliefs and not "truth" based on ration or evidence.

Buddhism appeals to many Americans as it promises what most lack - Happiness and contempt. In our society it is just another business of the "happiness industry" abused so much by marketing schemes. We have a number of depressed and unsatisfied individuals and the promise of happiness is hard to resist in the face of all the smiling faces you see on the pictures of gurus and especially the compassionate look of Dali Lama that seem to be empirical evidence that Buddhism does in fact work. The pictures seem to talk for themselves but as I will go into it later in my essay, looks can be deceiving.

We are bombarded with adds saying "you are not happy because you lack X product and by getting it you will be accepted by society and be happy". While Buddhism seems to attack this idea directly and promote simplicity of living and Letting Go to whatever condition, it nevertheless uses the same psychological scheme to trick people in. (perhaps without realizing it.) Buddhism will make you happy they say; the magical cure is to practice the 8fold path and meditate daily (and of course number of other things).

Now before I make my next claim I would like to talk about a simple fact of human cognition, namely the idea that we often “appeal to nobler motives” instead of the truth for why certain thing happened or our real motives behind our actions or how we feel. The best way to understand it is through examples, for instance instead of admitting to failing the class because we were lazy or lacked the intelligence we often appeal to another reason like saying that the teacher was unfair or the class was stupid or anything of that nature – we blame it on someone else or make a complete bullshit excuse to diminish the blow to our ego, because had we accepted the truth, the blow would be much more drastic. Or for example people who do not have sex very often would rather say that they just don’t care about it rather then saying that they can’t get it. Or people who do not understand a certain philosopher would rather say that he is completely illogical rather then admitting the fact that they simply do not understand and the real reason might be their lack of knowledge or intelligence.

Now assuming you got the jest of, it I will make a highly controversial claim and I will say it bluntly – Buddhism is “appeal to nobler motives” in case depression, unsatisfaction, body image problems or practically any other psychological disorder that would make one want to believe the first noble truth – Life IS Suffering and the idea that one need to realize that his own ego doesn’t really exist and that one needs to reach enlightenment which is ceasing to be completely and escaping the wheel of rebirth. As Nietzsche often said that we cannot separate philosophy from those who follow it, there are always reasons for why they follow this one and not the other. Think about it, if you have body image problem, you would love to believe the whole ego thing where people claim it can be gotten rid of and would cure their suffering. The promise lures them in and instead of admitting their pathology they start saying that anyone who has healthy egos are suffering and ignorant to Buddhist truth(complete delusion) and somehow label them as “bad” and him/her self as “good”, which is exactly why Nietzsche would call Slave Morality or I just call Jealousy inspired morality. In a case of depression one would love to believe that it is not pathology but “a realization of the first noble truth!”; the contrast being something like being considered blessed as opposed to sick.

Buddhism can also be thought of Nihilism in disguise of Spirituality or simply what Nietzsche criticized so much as “the other worldly philosophy”, meaning a philosophy that creates aversion to this world, this self, the way things are and instead putting all the focus on a goal outside of it. Of course you can claim it is not so but I think beyond the superficial beliefs Buddhism is exactly that – an escapism in disguise as evident in almost all the “teachings” given by its masters.

Now to go back to the Happy Faces on the pictures I offer the following examples. Look at the faces of some deluded Christians when they pray or are “possessed by holy spirit”. They are deluded as delusion can be and yet they are smiling. Now the reason why they smile is simply – they are told to smile. They act as if they are happy like all those fake smiles you see in America that is considered to be part of our culture. They are conditioned to present themselves as happy and they lie that they are happy but inside they have the hardest conflicts and turmoil that anyone imagine. In a case of Christians it is turmoils of guild, doubt and resisting sinful thoughts, in a case of Buddhists it is turmoil of trying to reach and impossible ideal of loss of ego, enlightenment and karma and the similar “deluded” states of mind such as anger. Now it is possible that some Buddhists are happy but the happiness is from successful escapism that they have in monastery isolated from any problems a person integrated in society might have like job, children and so on. Of course if you sit for days at a time doing nothing but breathing, you have not much to worry about but what kind of pussy existence is that? But of course they will not admit that they escaped the world, they will say they did it out of some kind of spiritual awakening which I will argue is simply depression.

Now why I said that Buddhism is not ally of reason is because it holds a number of beliefs claimed to be truth but are in fact having zero evidence. Of course they never say that it is complete bullshit – they will just say that you have to find out for yourself by meditating and or brainwashing yourself to their philosophy every day. They will say things like Buddha was enlightened and he knew the truth so basically the only evidence you have is someone word for it. Of course there are a number of people that I don’t argue probably came to feeling the same was as Buddha and claimed to be enlightened but I think it is just a delusion or error in brain cognition after years of conditioning. In fact Buddhism is very anti reason, especially in Zen as evident in their teachings like “it is the mind before the question.”

Having said all that I will confess that I myself is a former Buddhist with a few years of extensive experience including meditation practice and meeting very known people following the philosophy. Buddhism has to offer a lot of interesting ideas and wisdom but nothing worth going through piles and piles of bullshit, cultural baggage or something you will not get from a few western existentialist philosophers like Nietzsche or Sarte. In fact I learned MUCH more from them and my quality of life was improved greatly which I cannot say Buddhism did that much.

Basically let me save you some time. Meditating will not get you anything but mild relaxation and detachment from the world, which can be achieved much more efficiently by smoking pot or taking a hot bath. Buddhism is not the noble truth discovered by some lunatic but rather it is just another philosophy based on escapism and people unable to deal with life. Buddhism is not your road to happiness or self realization or even inner change. Masters will teach you how to tame “negative” emotions but they themselves suffer from them as much as you; ask them yourself they will tell you. The ideals Buddhism builds is against our biological nature and is impossible.

I hope this essay will save some years of bullshit, suffering and in the end realizing as many do today that Buddhism is just another Fad in our society.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724204 - 12/06/07 12:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry I couldn't make it all the way through your post (I'm old and don't have much time left).

I'll make a guess that I disagree to an extent. The Buddha's discoveries are sound psychology IMO. The rest that came after is what you are talking about.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Icelander]
    #7724221 - 12/06/07 12:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Sorry I couldn't make it all the way through your post (I'm old and don't have much time left).

I'll make a guess that I disagree to an extent. The Buddha's discoveries are sound psychology IMO. The rest that came after is what you are talking about.




:smile: :mushroom2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineLion
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724229 - 12/06/07 12:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

While Buddhism seems to attack this idea directly and promote simplicity of living and Letting Go to whatever condition, it nevertheless uses the same psychological scheme to trick people in. (perhaps without realizing it.)


man, i hope buddhism wakes up and realizes what it's doing


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Offlineastronaut
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724259 - 12/06/07 12:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I disagree. The thing is that Buddhism embraces complete transcendence. Unlike other religions, in Buddhism it is believed that as you approach enlightenment, the inherent untruth of the teachings that got you there are revealed; orthodox Buddhism is one path to enlightenment, but just like all of the others, it is riddled with false truths and irrationality.

Will being compassionate truly make you "better", or will running beads through your fingers better the karma of others? No, of course not. In fact, there's no such thing as karma; it's a paradigm through which one can glimpse enlightenment, but ultimately it's nothing more than the artificial invention of some robe-clad monks. But entering trance states and submitting your ego to the whole and realizing are among the most powerful steps that you can take towards enlightenment, because that's what enlightenment is ultimately about: dissolution of the ego.

There's a phrase in Mahayana Buddhism that summarizes this:
"Gone, gone, gone beyond; gone all-together beyond".

You don't even need to subscribe to the Buddhist faith to attain what the Buddhists know as enlightenment. Enlightenment is a state of mind, and I, an uncompromising "bottomless" nihilist who once found nothing but fault in the Buddhist faith, am certain that it's just as real as any other state of mind -- because I caught a glimpse of it through my nihilism.

edit - In fact, I'd go so far as to call enlightenment nothing more than a state of ecstatic nihilism: the self is irrelevant, the physical world is irrelevant, and ultimately, the collective is irrelevant and there's nothing beyond the physical world; this is a manifestation of true serenity and beauty. Coming to terms with and then finding ultimate beauty in meaninglessness = enlightenment.

Edited by astronaut (12/06/07 12:33 PM)

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724266 - 12/06/07 12:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Very good post! :thumbup:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724344 - 12/06/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Oh man.  The Buddha's going to send you to hell for this. :nono:

Oh, wait... :crazy:


--------------------

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Offlinenotapillow
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7724404 - 12/06/07 12:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

dont take to heart the "ism" take to heart all hearts
:fairy:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724531 - 12/06/07 01:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

BTW, I'd like to address this comment:
Quote:

Meditating will not get you anything but mild relaxation and detachment from the world, which can be achieved much more efficiently by smoking pot or taking a hot bath.



I'm sorry, but this is not what meditation is about. The goal of meditation is not relaxation, but rather mental discipline. Someone with years of experience and practice at meditation will have much greater control over their brain functions, including their emotions(thus allowing for greater happiness).


--------------------

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7724549 - 12/06/07 01:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
BTW, I'd like to address this comment:
Quote:

Meditating will not get you anything but mild relaxation and detachment from the world, which can be achieved much more efficiently by smoking pot or taking a hot bath.



I'm sorry, but this is not what meditation is about. The goal of meditation is not relaxation, but rather mental discipline. Someone with years of experience and practice at meditation will have much greater control over their brain functions, including their emotions(thus allowing for greater happiness).




It should be noted that this is backed by neurological research.

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Offlinezhenka11230
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Registered: 12/06/07
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7724561 - 12/06/07 01:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I've yet to see research that was not made by the mind institute or any other institution which would be expected to have heavy biasm towards Buddhism. I would love links to legitimate research and if you could post some i would be grateful.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724585 - 12/06/07 01:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

biasm towards Buddhism.

:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724616 - 12/06/07 01:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Here's were I see Buddhism is a healthy psychology. The Buddha said, if I remember correctly. Attachment is suffering. Not desiring or wanting or preferring but attachment to the things we desire, want or prefer. This is basically the same as Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy from Albert Ellis but goes even further back to the Roman philosopher Epictetus. This is a pretty healthy philosophy/psychology to live by. The Buddhists that followed, same as the followers of most religions turned it into something of a joke or as a way to gain power and control people.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinenotapillow
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724621 - 12/06/07 01:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zhenka11230 said:
I've yet to see research that was not made by the mind institute or any other institution which would be expected to have heavy biasm towards Buddhism. I would love links to legitimate research and if you could post some i would be grateful.



you have not looked then
there have been all mannor of expereiments conducted on monks brains.

just saw somthing about one test in particular on the natinal geographic channal like 2 days ago.


meditaion only works if you...do it...and dont stop thinking "damn maybe i should just smoke some pot, that would be easier"


--------------------



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Offlinezhenka11230
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: notapillow]
    #7724647 - 12/06/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I did meditation for over a year, i am just honest about my results - it didn't do squad.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724655 - 12/06/07 01:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I took karate for over a year, and Aikido for another year, but I still wouldn't like my chances in a street brawl.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724671 - 12/06/07 01:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Meditation isn't for everyone and results vary I guess. I do meditation, like you, just to relax my body and slow things down a little. It feels really nice at times but hasn't been magic for me either. Honestly, I've known a number of long term meditators and none of them seem changed in any major way. Of course I don't know what they were like before they started.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/06/07 01:58 PM)

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Offlinenotapillow
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7724691 - 12/06/07 02:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I took karate for over a year, and Aikido for another year, but I still wouldn't like my chances in a street brawl.



lol good point :smile:
i rmember when i was like12 a kid who was a "brown belt" kept talkign amjor shit t me. well i pounded his ass in like 2 sec flat and i diddnt need no belt to do it.
time has no bearing on meditation.

i have been activly meditating since 6th grade. i have since grown out of strict buddhism sectioning off. but f you think that you have reached the end of the line in your subconcious you are just being silly :smile:


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Offlinemushroomplume
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: notapillow]
    #7724842 - 12/06/07 02:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

zhenka,

you should ask yourself why you are attacking Buddhism.

usually when we attack something, it is because we are afraid.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7724853 - 12/06/07 02:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"Attack" is your subjective opinion here. This is a debate forum and he brought a subject up for debate IMO. Maybe better to look at your own bias.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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